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Roma AV 60 asses original or fake (mordern die)?

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sink9891:

--- Quote from: Din X on October 11, 2021, 07:39:23 am ---If fake it would be a recut transfer die fake, but to prove this a die study would be necessary to reconstruct which details were in the ancient dies in which die state.
I do not like the coin (lifeless, soapy surface, and some differences in details to die matches may be due to wrong recutting) but to prove it could be very difficult because I could not find enough die matches in good quality, which would be good enough for a representative die study.
To prove it is in such cases, especially if you know the result (fake or not) before is only for fun or self-affirmation.



In museum collections available at numismatics.org is not any die match, but I guess it could be possible to find more die matches in other museum collections, literature (like auction catalogues etc) if someone is willing to spend much time and money

http://numismatics.org/crro/id/rrc-44.2

If someone is really interested and willing to spend much time and money he or she could of course prove it but, why sould anyone do this, if he/she will get in best case a thank you and the effort is in no relation to the value of the coin and the one who is doing it will get in best cases a thank you. I am sometimes doing such things, like spending much time and money (literature, to see authentic ones in hand or fakes or spend money for them to be digitalized) for research.
It seems like others do not see such things or appreaciate them but this is actually not necessary because it can be really fun to get to know more about such coins and helpping to get even better, so it can pay off at the end.
To do research for own coins is another case and always more interesting.

I own a Samos drachm, bought it very cheap from ebay, it was sold together with many old fakes, so most likely someone sold an old fake collection.
So it was first in my fake collection becasue I thought it must be fake because it was sold with fakes.
But it looks so convincing.
So I started research.
Of my coin a plaster cast is at Münzkabinett Berlin indicating that it was a long time ago condemed by director of Münzkabinett Julius Friedländer , Julius Friedländer has described a coin of this type in his book as fake.
So I bought Silver Coins of Samos by Barron, because my coin looks 100% authentic in hand and I have found die matches and die links in very old auction catalogues.
My coin is a die match to a coin considered by Barron as authentic and my coins is die liked to the other authentic Samos drachms of this type!
Research costed some time and money (book was expensive and travel to Berlin) but I really enjoyed it especially because it is my coin and it is 100% authentic, more authentic is not possible.
If it would not be my coin I would not have invested so much money and time for it.
And on the plaster cast of my coin a pedigree is written "Kiehn, Köln, 1935, 4, 59 bzw. Kiehn, Köln, 1935, (März)" but I couldn´t verify it so far.

--- End quote ---

Thanks Din,I read many of your replies and they are very helpful!
The picture is 20X-zoomed, 60 asses is very small for a 15mm size,and it is heavily cleaned for the observe.
The only die matches are metioned above,seems very difficult to find a clear picture in recent auction.

Din X:
I think that details look different than on the other authentic coins from these dies in this thread.
This could be due to wrong recutting of details, compare for example the crest of mars on obverse and dots of dotted border, feathers on reverse.
On Sicilian transfer die fakes the dotted border is often but not always recut.
I have at least two Sicilian transfer dies from same mother but they are idential except the dotted border which was different recut on both.
So comparing the dotted border can for example help to prove recutting.
I have looked but I could not find fakes or transfer dies exactly from these dies, so this is not helpping because I have only access to a very small number of all the fakes and dies produced by Sicilian forgers.
What I can tell is that I have not seen any real coin with such a surface so far but really many Sicilain  Gold fakes with such or a more convincing surface.
And in general such surface can be often found on bad transfer die fakes.
Only because I do not know that authentic coins with such surface can exist doesn not nesessarily mean that they could not exist but I for myself will only change my mind if I will see a 100% authentic coin (from excavation from untouched earth) with such a surface.

Din X:
Dots do not fit.

sink9891:

--- Quote from: Din X on October 12, 2021, 07:04:56 am ---Dots do not fit.

--- End quote ---
Yes, I agree,but seems they are very very close...besides, the first two pictures likely come from same coin (compare the reverse and the edge).
By the way the reverse is more likely the lower sample,but have different type of observse

This coin appears in 2017 here.
http://numismaclub.com/unt/176656-roman_republic_anonymous___211___208_bc___av_60_asses.html

Din X:
Yes, it seems like I counted dots 2 times dots of same coin but I think it is not changing the result only making it not so representative anymore if only 1 authentic coin was used instead of 2 for comparison.
Has this coin (picture first post, which is actually the numismaclub coin) been sold at ebay before, the pictures of numismaclub remind me of ebay sellers pictures.
And if we then could find out if the coin was sold before on ebay by and alias of the Sicilian fake sellers it could me the situation clearer.
Sadly there are very many coins missing on ebay archiv coinvac and it is not getting updates anymore.

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