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Author Topic: Genuine ancient ring or are there things off with it? Need a 2nd opinion please.  (Read 2934 times)

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Offline Kilian O

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Hello guys,

I was wondering if anybody could give me more insight on the estimated age and what it's depicting. Roma? It's diameter is 24mm.
Believe it to be real as it was purchased by trusted dealer/auction but then again you never know.


Thanks :)

Offline otlichnik

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Re: Would like more info on this ancient ring
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2020, 06:28:47 pm »
Personally the style of the portrait bust concerns me.  It does not look like a true ancient object, it looks like something trying to be an ancient object.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Kilian O

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Re: Would like more info on this ancient ring
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2020, 07:10:21 pm »
Bought it from a trusted dealer on an auction but got it for a cheap price. All the inscription said was ancient ring, it looks genuine old and quite aged. I'm in no means someone with alot of knowledge about this and will definitely need a second opinion but the ring itself looks genuine to me as in wear and patina. The style reminds me of some roman ones I see pop up every now and then. Maybe the ring itself is genuine and carving done later I don't know.

I believe it to be real and maybe i'm stupid for doing so  :P , why does the portrait style concerns you? It looks quite primitive to me .

Here's another close-up.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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...It looks quite primitive to me ...

That is the problem. The Romans were not primitive.
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Offline Kilian O

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But for all I know it can be anything, doesn't have to be roman it's just a guess. I doubt everywhere in the empire, the many provinces, that rings all looked great. I have seem quite some examples of bad art and self inscripted letters. There are probably in the thousands of different designs and how much more in the ground? I find it quite blunt to say it doesn't fit being Roman but can be ancient and from a whole different period.  :P

Offline Bill W4

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I think you hit the nail on the head.  "it could be anything"
I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member!

Offline Peter B6

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Quite sharp edges give it away, along with previous comments. Made recently I am afraid, probably from Balkan workshops.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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You are apparently only looking for an affirmation of what you already believe. I think it looks like something modern trying to look old.
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Offline Kilian O

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Thanks for the input guys i'm just going to stick with coins cause that's what is the easiest, atleast I know those are genuine. Was just looking for some antiquities to display with my coins, any idea where I can get genuine items and not break the bank?

Also I can't make a complaint towards the auction house if i'm right?

Cheers  +++

Offline otlichnik

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To believe something is genuine, or dismiss it as fake, you need more than personal opinion.   I am not picking on anyone, this comment applies to all.  To express an opinion based on nothing is worth little.  Comments from experienced members can legitimately raise concerns, but should not be taken as gospel or evidence.  They can serve as a sign that some tough questions should be asked but not as the final word.

For demonstrating something is genuine you need to associate it to similar items that are known to come from verified finds, respected reference works, etc.  For these purposes a sellers assertion of genuineness is worth little alone.  The more controversial or questioned the claim, the better the evidence should be.

The design engraved on this ring has no genuine parallel that I know of.  I don't know everything on Roman rings by any means, but I have looked at a significant numbers of works on Roman small finds.  Maybe someone else will find a genuine example of this design, but until then I am highly skeptical because it is nothing like the style of the hundreds of genuine ones I have seen.

Furthermore, even the form (overall shape) of the ringed bezel does not match Roman finds.  For example, Annamaria R. Facsady shows 23 different ring forms in her book Jewelry in Aquincum.  The form of ring from this thread does not match any of them.  Proof it is not a genuine Roman form?  No.  But it does raise issues.  The Museum at Aquincum (in Budapest) has a huge collection of items and is representative of items from Hungary but also Central Europe and the Balkans more widely.  The harder something is to find in relevant and detailed references, the more skeptical I become of its genuineness.

Antiquities are, sadly, more difficult to document and verify.  There are few reference works as well organized and documented as are coin books.  Fewer dealers understand them or bother to do the necessary research. 

If you buy from a dealer who will take the item back if you have a concern then collecting is much safer.  Even if a dealer balks at first about a refund, letting them know that several people have raised questions and pointed out concerns and that you would therefore like your money back unless the dealer can point to a proper reference work, might work.  Even if no refund is possible it can be a learning experience.  I have been collecting Roman and other ancient fibula for almost 20 years and have literally dozens of books in more than a half dozen languages.  I still have several fakes I am struck with.  Each has taught me something....

Finally, if the ring is fake and you are stuck with it, can it be worn?  Gifted to a friend? 

SC

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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Kilian O

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Okay thank you sorry I didn't know that.

I got this response back from the dealer I bought from asking for a return:

Dear Klian
This ring was purchased 2017 in coin Fair in Germany.
I bought from an antique dealer. It is authentic enough.
If in doubt, you are welcome to return. It won't be a problem.
Of course we will refund the amount back.
Best Regards

Taking all the things you guys said it would be the better option to return and not take his word for it?




Offline Joe Sermarini

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There are actually a few clues in his response.

"Authentic enough" ? That is an expression I would never use.  Something is either authentic or not. Using that expression indicates a lack of certainty, not certainty.

"Antique dealer" ? That is not a confidence builder.  That ring probably is antique, but an ancient ring is not an antique, it is an antiquity. When you buy an antiquity, you want to buy it from an antiquity dealer. Most antique dealers don't know antiquities.

I would return it.
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Offline otlichnik

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Me too.  I also have no concern about the fibulae.  The pin may have been replaced/repaired in modern times but that is common.

SC
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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Aleksanr B

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  Normal ancient Greek ring IV-III century BC, the style of execution is correct. in our region, I have personally found many times similar I still have shields from such rings, there is a whole, so the ring is all right do not worry

 For example, even with a similar helmet.

 



If you are interested, I can still show similar ancient Greek rings.

Offline Mayadigger

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Ave Killian O and all,

Just chiming in here but in this case I agree with Aleksanr.


Normal ancient Greek ring IV-III century BC, the style of execution is correct. in our region, I have personally found many times similar I still have shields from such rings, there is a whole, so the ring is all right do not worry.


Please compare the shape of the two rings; both are spot on for the Greek Hellenistic period. And remember, not all rings were made for royalty nor for elites, for that matter. Most were fabricated for more common folks.

So what if the helmeted image on Killian's bezel appears to be crude? I have many rings in my collection with crude engravings but that does not equate to them being not absolutely 100% authentic.

The photo below is from Pollio, page 57. Please note "with a crudely engraved image". It also displays the same lozenge-shaped bezel.

Just my thoughts...

Kevin
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