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Author Topic: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii  (Read 72103 times)

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Offline labienus

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #100 on: May 10, 2020, 02:20:21 am »
No comments especially for the previous price in the 2015 sale.

A Tardani counterfeit of the Leg PRI in the miscellaneous section of the incoming auction (I deleted the name of the auctionner).


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Category
Miscellaneous, Silver
Description
The Triumvirs. Mark Antony. Autumn 32-spring 31 BC. AR Denarius (17mm, 3.37 g, 9h). Tardani Counterfeit. Praetorian galley right / Aquila between two signa; LEG PRI across lower field. For prototype: cf. Crawford 544/13; cf. CRI 348; cf. Sydenham 1215; cf. RSC 26; RBW –. Toned, a few light scratches and marks. VF.

From the Jonathan P. Rosen Collection. Ex Lanz 161 (7 December 2015), lot 214 (as genuine, realized 6250 Euros).

The counterfeiter Tardani was prolific in Europe during the late 19th to early 20th centuries. Many of the dies Tardani created are now housed in the Smithsonian, and Frank L. Kovacs, the noted dealer and scholar from Corte Madera, California, is one of the few numismatists to have studied these dies.

Frank notes that “Tardani made his Leg Pri from ‘scratch’ by removing the legion number from a positive [electrotype copy] – creating a negative [electrotype copy] into which he engraved the desired number, and then striking the fakes. He kept an archive of positives from which he could then make as many transfer dies as he needed. He probably also created the LEG XXIV–XXX  (Syd. 1247-1253), which Sear listed as ‘doubtful’ in Roman Silver Coins.”



Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #101 on: May 22, 2020, 06:03:13 pm »
Great notes on the above.  I'd like to have one of these forgeries.

Offline labienus

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #102 on: May 25, 2020, 01:17:18 am »
Hi, Jay
at least, from now, there will be some kind of "official" track record (at least from a correct coin dealer and their database) on this LEG PRI stuff.
Only hope that the coin was not bought for being used wrongly in the future .....
Best
Pierre

Offline Jose D2

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #103 on: May 12, 2022, 01:12:49 pm »
Hi,
I´m José, from Portugal, and I present you my Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii; in your opinion, is a LEG VIII or a LEG VIIII ?

Thank you and best regards
José

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #104 on: May 12, 2022, 06:29:53 pm »
Looks like VIII to me

Offline Din X

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2022, 11:00:14 am »
Has anyone seen a leginoary denarius of Marcus Antonius like this before?
Is there written on reverse LEG PMA?
What do others read?
It was sold as fake but auction house is not the best if it comes to fakes, so I do not plan to rely on them, without knowing more.
The style looks a little bit strange so maybe an ancient imitation?
And the hole could but needn´t mean that it is possibly a subaeratus.
Or an ancient unpublished type?
I am not convinced that it is a modern fantasy forgery, they would rather copy existing common or rare types, because new types will be checked more carefully and will be so rather recognized as fakes.
I won it, but it will take a while till I will have it in hand.

Description auction house:
 "Mark Antony, Replica of Legionary Denarius (18mm, 3.65g, 6h). Galley r. R/ Legionary aquila between two signa. Crawford 544 (for prototype). Modern replica for study"

Your opinion/help is very much appreciated!

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2022, 08:06:03 am »
Interesting coin Din.  My guess is an ancient immitation.  I'll pull out my Imperators book to see if anything is noted in the footnotes

Offline TenthGen

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #107 on: July 23, 2022, 08:11:17 pm »
I would also lean toward ancient imitation, in part because it would be a bizarre way to make a modern fake. I've never seen anything quite like it, and I've been primarily focused on legionary denarii for several years. If I had to speculate, I would say it's an ancient imitation that was mimicking coins of the named legions - perhaps LEG XVIII LYBICAE based on how many of those letters could possibly be a scrambling or misreading of a real coin. Could also be an imitation of the Praetorian type, though that shouldn't have LEG on it. I think they had a coin or coins with a decent obverse and just made do with what they thought could be on the reverse from memory or worn/partial examples

Din, I would love to know what you think of the coin in hand and if you see any indications of it being a modern fake. Even if it isn't a subaeratus, that wouldn't rule out an ancient imitation or ancient forgery since these were known to have been made with lower %silver - ergo, you could still turn a profit by making a lower-silver content coin that would still pass as a real legionary denarius and spend like any other denarius (usually).

Very interesting!

Offline Din X

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #108 on: July 24, 2022, 01:56:17 am »
I have it in hand , the fakes I ordered from this auction house arrived yesterday.
Does anyone know what the yellow encrustration is (it is hard)?
Under the holes is always silver (2 on reverse and one on obverse), so it seems to be rather corrosion.
In hand it looks very convincing.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #109 on: July 25, 2022, 04:18:08 pm »
The result of being in an iron-rich soil? That yellow colour usually results from ferric oxides being deposited on the coin.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline Din X

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Re: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2022, 03:57:34 am »
Thank you all.
It seems like some do not want to do coins that they do not fully trust to their real coins and if they do them to fakes, it is possible that some of their fakes are actually not fake but authentic.
I assume that the strange legend and style was the reason why  the previous owner did not like it but this doesn´t mean that it must be a modern fake.
An ancient imitation or even official issue isimho more likely.


 

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