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Author Topic: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus  (Read 3694 times)

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Offline Kevin D

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2022, 08:10:03 pm »
Head of the Heberden Coin Room at the Ashmolean in Oxford and Mary Beard weight in (+ a nice picture: the surface certainly looks odd).

http://www.cnn.com/style/article/coin-fake-emperor-real-intl-scli-scn/index.html

Richard

Myself, I don't have a feeling or opinion on the age of the coins in question.

The linked article in the quote above mentioned "scanning electron microscopy" as one of the tools used to authenticate the coins as being ancient. I remember SEM was used many years ago to authenticate coins from the "Black Sea Hoard", which subsequently turned out to be 'tourist souvenirs' that were being sold in Eastern Europe. That was a long time ago, and I suspect the SEM people have been gaining knowledge and ability in the intervening years.

Offline Hydatius

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2022, 10:42:10 pm »
Campbell, I., A Sponsian re-discovered, Numismatic Chronicle, Vol: 157 (1997) 194 ff

https://www.jstor.org/stable/42668740

I had to laugh with the newspaper headlines on Thursday and wondered how many times can this coin be rediscovered.

Regards,

Mauseus

Here's the article for those who don't have university access (as JPGs because PDFs aren't accepted):
Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine quam turpe nescire.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2022, 05:48:36 am »
Well, it turns out that the Cohen's old story (these coins are modern fakes; modern = beginning of the XVIII century) was a good story. So they are not even barbarous. And apparently Pearson's study is not so strong as it seems to be.

https://www.academia.edu/91734595/_Emperor_Sponsianus_and_the_crisis_of_Roman_Studies

https://antigonejournal.com/2022/11/sponsian-fake-emperor/?fbclid=IwAR0Fb1h-oNcoKoKEGcaG11fW5kf4QRLwSnjoazfkn7s_lUQVVvZneXc-mP8

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Offline Molinari

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2022, 06:21:29 am »
I didn’t find either of those rebuttals very good, personally.  The Csaba  one was mostly just a lengthy ad hominem attack and the Antigone one was a bit amateurish. There are, however, some very interesting critiques others have offered here and there—the best I’ve seen are on Twitter.  Someone (I can’t remember where) claims that Sponsian is a Latinization of a common Transylvanian name, but I’ve been unable to see the evidence.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2022, 09:27:30 am »
This is not my area of expertise, so I just wanted to point out that the dispute is getting more and more heated.

I read the chapter "The unsolved mystery of Sponsian" in Pearson's book, and it seems to me that he is too eager to treat Sponsian as a historical fact.

And as has been discussed here, even if these coins are (at best) authentic barbarian coins, they have virtually no value as a source of information about any historical facts. They only inform about themselves. So there is no unsolved mystery of Sponsian. Only mystery (probably solved already by Cohen) of few strange coins allegedly found in XVIII century.
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Offline Molinari

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2022, 09:41:48 am »
I really want someone to take on the issue of the encrustations.  That to me could easily resolve this whole issue.  I'm tempted to bury one of my gold coins for a year and see if any encrustations appear in the recesses!

Offline n.igma

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2022, 08:41:44 pm »
A comprehensive cautionary analysis if not a complete rebuttal in the latest ANS blog Is Sponsian real? Further Considerationshttps://numismatics.org/pocketchange/sponsian/

A fake IMHO. The authors appear to have ignored many inconvenient facts.

I note the publisher, the online open access journal Plos One has little (in fact none other than the Sponsian paper as far as I can establish) by way of numismatic papers https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ and https://plos.org/research-communities/ and  https://plos.org/#journals and https://collections.plos.org/calls-for-papers/ and https://plos.org/about/
Leads one to question the quality of the numismatic peer review process to which the paper was subject.

Notably Plos One (and/or the authors) haven't published anything of the peer review as they often do with other papers:
PLOS now offers accepted authors the opportunity to publish the peer review history of their manuscript alongside the final article. The peer review history package includes the complete editorial decision letter for each revision, with reviews, and your responses to reviewer comments, including attachments. If the peer reviewers have chosen to sign their reviews, their names will also appear.

If your submission is accepted for publication, you’ll be invited to opt-in to publish the peer review history of your manuscript using a form in our submission system.

Sharing peer review history enriches the scientific record, increases transparency and accountability, and helps to reinforce the validity of your research by displaying the thoroughness of the peer review process it has undergone.

The journal reserves the right not to publish peer review history in special cases, for example, due to an ethical consideration, such as the inclusion of information about a vulnerable population.



The outstanding question to ask yourself: Is the Sponsian paper documenting a quality piece of research meeting all the requirements of sound numismatic scholarship?

I read the chapter "The unsolved mystery of Sponsian" in Pearson's book, and it seems to me that he is too eager to treat Sponsian as a historical fact.

As Carl Sagan sagely stated "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

To which I'd add, not all journals are created equal and therefore it is necessary to look behind the curtain of the publication process.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline n.igma

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2022, 02:21:17 am »
Perhaps not coincidentally the ANS blog on Is Sponsian real? Further Considerationshttps://numismatics.org/pocketchange/sponsian/ was preceded by this one Numismatic Research and Peer Review: https://numismatics.org/pocketchange/peer-review/
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Din X

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2022, 03:52:55 am »
I really want someone to take on the issue of the encrustations.  That to me could easily resolve this whole issue.  I'm tempted to bury one of my gold coins for a year and see if any encrustations appear in the recesses!

Is it correct that we want to know if such encrustations can be reproduced artificially and if yes if forgers were doing this already in the time when the Sponsianus fakes appeared in the market?

What i would have done is to compare the encrustrations with encrustrations found on fakes from modern dies in the time between 1500-1800.

And to solve it there are of course such old fakes with black and red encrustraions but on pictures it is not even always possible to tell if this are always encrustrations or was remains.

Here some old Gold fakes in BNF some have red spots "not sure to tell from pictures".

https://catalogue.bnf.fr/changerPage.do?motRecherche=faux+d%C2%B4or+monnaie&nbResultParPage=100&afficheRegroup=false&affinageActif=false&pageEnCours=2&nbPage=2&trouveDansFiltre=NoticePUB&triResultParPage=0&critereRecherche=0

The university museum in Glasgow has several St. Urbain fakes listed as authentic and other fakes listed as authentic, yes the museum with the Sponsian fakes.

It is a very old fake (came in to collection before 1783) and has black spots and a red one above Matidias ear (wax or encrustration?)

Matidia Aureus and  Denar from the collection university Glasgow is a die match St. Urbain fake number 9 (matrixes in Münzkabinett in Wien).
Picture form plate from article
" The Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society Fifth Series, Vol. 13, No. 51 (1933), pp. 203-219"


http://collections.gla.ac.uk/#/details/ecatalogue/85204

http://collections.gla.ac.uk/#/details/ecatalogue/85203

" The Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society Fifth Series, Vol. 13, No. 51 (1933), pp. 203-219"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/42678522

Offline Din X

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2022, 03:59:05 am »
Some red encrustrations on an old published Babylon forgery (withdrawn as fake)

MYRINA AND RELATED FORGERIES, Philip Kinns there 41f


Offline Din X

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2022, 04:11:39 am »
I hope it is not to muss off topic but the style of the fakes reminds me on my old Augustus fake overstruck on 2 Escudos of Philip V.
The good thing is that it is overstruck on a much later coin so it is an anachronism and the coin must be fake if not some would possibly declare it as an ancient barbarian fake.
What is interesting is that it has survived and hasn´t been melted down, again there is now way it could fool anyone and if recognized as fake it could make people look more carefully at coins from this source and this could be a problem for the forger, if people find out he is selling fakes.
There was a time starting at Renaissance when there was a demand for coins and medals of historically interesting persons and if they did not exist so far they were invented and they are pieces fo time history and very collectable but not ancient, i collect them.


 

Offline Molinari

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2022, 07:38:40 am »
I really want someone to take on the issue of the encrustations.  That to me could easily resolve this whole issue.  I'm tempted to bury one of my gold coins for a year and see if any encrustations appear in the recesses!

Is it correct that we want to know if such encrustations can be reproduced artificially and if yes if forgers were doing this already in the time when the Sponsianus fakes appeared in the market?

What i would have done is to compare the encrustrations with encrustrations found on fakes from modern dies in the time between 1500-1800.

And to solve it there are of course such old fakes with black and red encrustraions but on pictures it is not even always possible to tell if this are always encrustrations or was remains.

Here some old Gold fakes in BNF some have red spots "not sure to tell from pictures".

https://catalogue.bnf.fr/changerPage.do?motRecherche=faux+d%C2%B4or+monnaie&nbResultParPage=100&afficheRegroup=false&affinageActif=false&pageEnCours=2&nbPage=2&trouveDansFiltre=NoticePUB&triResultParPage=0&critereRecherche=0

The university museum in Glasgow has several St. Urbain fakes listed as authentic and other fakes listed as authentic, yes the museum with the Sponsian fakes.

It is a very old fake (came in to collection before 1783) and has black spots and a red one above Matidias ear (wax or encrustration?)

Matidia Aureus and  Denar from the collection university Glasgow is a die match St. Urbain fake number 9 (matrixes in Münzkabinett in Wien).
Picture form plate from article
" The Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society Fifth Series, Vol. 13, No. 51 (1933), pp. 203-219"


http://collections.gla.ac.uk/#/details/ecatalogue/85204

http://collections.gla.ac.uk/#/details/ecatalogue/85203

" The Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society Fifth Series, Vol. 13, No. 51 (1933), pp. 203-219"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/42678522

Examining the encrustations on known fakes with the same analysis would have the same impact, good point.

Offline Hydatius

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2022, 08:54:57 am »
The Csaba  one was mostly just a lengthy ad hominem attack

Not so. He quite rightly undermines the author's authority and ability to undertake basic historical research. It's the same reason you shouldn't believe Q.
Richard
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Offline Molinari

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2022, 02:37:56 pm »
Well I suppose we disagree.  I found little substance to his critique. 

Offline Din X

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2022, 05:29:14 pm »
We can get many helpful and useful information in history form different sciences (multidisciplinary), so this is actually great.

But this different sciences should complement each other and all arguments for and against the own opinion should be published not only what is supporting your position.

Here we seem to have a Geologist who checked the encrustrations, I assume that this encrustrations are minerals and a subject of direction of mineralogy.

His argument seems that the scratches and encrustrations can not be produced artificially, if this is actually true the coins must be authentic ancient coins, if it is not true and forgers knew and know how to do it, then he lost his very best arguments for authenticity!
My question is how does he know that the scratches and encrustrations can not be produces artificially, did they try to do so and asked really really good chemists and mineralogists if it is actually possible, ?(I fear they did not)
Did they compare the encrustrations and scratches with encrustrations and scratches on old fake (1500-1800)? (why not)
I assume that they only compared the encrustrations and scratches on them with some authentic coins and though that they are similar or identical and so they must be authentic, too.

The idea itself is good, I look for patina (for bronze coins most important) and mineral encrustrations too if it comes to authentication and that will weight much but at the end I will authenticate the coin as a WHOLE and if the coin looks entirely convincing I will consider it authentic but if the coin looks bad I will not care much for mineral encrustratons and patina (because I know how good forgers can be). Some fakes are for example overstuck on authentic coins so here we have to look at the coin as a whole.

What I am missing is that an expert in the field of archaeometry checked the gold, when it was melted, from which mines it comes from, if the alloy is correct for this time and comparing it with authentic ancient gold artifacts and coins form this time and region.

Maybe an expert in chemistry and mineralogy checking if such mineral encrustrations can be produced artificially and comparing with encrustrations on authentic artifacts and coins from this time and later with old fakes (1500-1800) and modern fakes (1800-till nowadays).

Historian checking if there is actually evidence for the existance of Sponsianus or not and if it is plausible or not that he actually existed.

Numismatist and an expert for old fakes checking:

Are the coins form a known forger (similar or identical style and or fabric and or alloy or matrixes or die links to fakes know) ?
If you compare them with authentic coin (officially,unofficially and barbarian) and fake coins, do they have more in common with fake coins or authentic coins and what are the differences?
Why did they cast them, what is the reason for casting them?
Why and how do casted coins have different flan shape, centering and slippage and double striking, if you make casts that look like struck coins you should stike them? (maybe an experiment of a forger how to make strange but old looking coins)
Is plausible that Sponsianus has minted coins for himself and for other emperors like Philipp and Gordianus, if Sponsian is minting coins for himself it is plausible but to mint coins for other emperors only makes sense if it would help to himself as emperor for example if they are his ancestor (dynastic legitimation).
If they are barbarian imitations, then they would try to imitate already existing coins they got in their hands but I doubt that they really got some official coins from Sponisn in their hands which they copied so barbarians have invented coins of Sponsian or was Sponsian a barbarian?
Do coins showin Sponsianus really prove the existance of Sponsianus?
If barbarians copy coins they can misread legends on bad centered and or bad struck or worn coins, so maybe they misread the legend of a coin  and thougt it was supposed to be from Sponsian?

One problem is that "proving" that "Sponsianus" actually existed is a sensation and will bring the author fame and publicity (newspaprers etc.).
To prove opposite will not bring you much publicity (no one will cares), because it is alreay consensus for a long time for most numismatists that they are fake.
So it is more interesting for an author if the result will be that Sponsianus existed.










Offline Din X

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2022, 05:40:05 pm »
Is it possible to remove mineral encrustrations from ancient artifacts and the making them stick on fake coins without glue?
I am not sure if glue would be actually noticed but it would be not sophisticated to do so.

To minerals, in school we did mineral breeding. it was really fun.
For me it the growing structure of the minerals would be interesting, fast growing and fine structure or slow growing rough structure.
i am very sure that this minerals can be produced artificially (why not?), the only question is if the managed to copy the growing structure.

Offline Molinari

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2022, 05:46:04 pm »
Good points, but I note that some of those questions were answered in the essay, and there was also some interesting additional evidence posted online by Tejas concerning cast gold imitations from the area of Ukrainian and Romania (I think that is where they are from). Also, this was a team with Paul as the lead author—there was indeed a numismatist on the team, the curator at Glasgow, and I believe one other classicist.

All this isn’t to defend the coins—they certainly look like ridiculous forgeries, but also almost so ridiculous that they could be crazy prestige issues for a short-lived general elevated to Emperor. Personally, I’d like to see the encrustations studies in the way you state because the entire argument rests on the encrustations, IMO.  It is a falsifiable thesis, in other words, and I think the study is plausible enough that someone should try and determine if it is false.


Offline Din X

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2022, 06:15:15 pm »
I really want someone to take on the issue of the encrustations.  That to me could easily resolve this whole issue.  I'm tempted to bury one of my gold coins for a year and see if any encrustations appear in the recesses!

May I ask a stupid question?
Does it really make any difference if it comes to encrustrations what noble metal the coin is consisting of?
If yes why?
Do we really have different mineral encrustrations on silver and gold coins?
I do not think that there will be any difference if you burry a gold or silver coin under the same conditions, the minerals only need a place where they can grow.
The gold and silver may be reacting too with elements in earth but I do not think that this is actually really influencing which minerals are growing on the coin and how they are growing.

I think that the environment will influence:

temperature
pressure
time burried
the earth, what elements are in the earth and how much water

So the coin should be burried in Romania for a comparable result.

To make minerals grow very fast is not any problem (you only need high temperature) but they will have a different growing structure than very slowly growing minerals (normal temperature) on authentic coins.

Offline Molinari

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2022, 06:25:29 pm »
You’re right—I was half kidding.  Good point about the specific soil, too.

Offline n.igma

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2022, 10:25:28 pm »
.. they could be crazy prestige issues for a short-lived general elevated to Emperor.

Begs the question of what makes an emperor? A declaration of such by a crackpot with a handful of supporters on the fringe of empire?

At best this guy could probably be described as a pretender, if he existed at all. Hardly the stuff of great historical significance as many pretenders have come and gone with no impact whatever and usually less than a footnote in historical sources.

To describe him as a new Roman Emperor within the context of empire is to my mind a a giant overstatement! But hey that is what's required to sell a book on the subject, otherwise its just more ho hum, attracting little or no media attention, and unlikely to generate much by way of book sales.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and none is presented in the 'scholarly paper.'

Din X neatly summed it up:
One problem is that "proving" that "Sponsianus" actually existed is a sensation and will bring the author fame and publicity (newspaprers etc.).
To prove opposite will not bring you much publicity (no one will cares), because it is alreay consensus for a long time for most numismatists that they are fake.
So it is more interesting for an author if the result will be that Sponsianus existed.
And I suggest the same for the Glasgow museum that houses the fakes.

Welcome to the new world of popular numismatic 'scholarship' shaped by the social media zeitgeist of celebrity seekers, influencers and fake news - a bit sad really - anything goes for a whiff of celebrity and a quick buck.
All historical inquiry is contingent and provisional, and our own prejudices will in due course come under scrutiny by our successors.

Offline Molinari

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2022, 08:41:21 am »
That’s a good point—not a true emperor of course, if he existed at all.  I do wish the press releases weren’t all hype because I think they’ve tarnished an interesting topic. The paper itself was fairly measured, IMO. 

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2022, 09:44:31 am »
Very interesting discussions.

To me there are three questions:

Is the coin ancient?
(Upon my initial reading this seemed to be the case - "old find, some provenance, encrustations" - but as we now see much of that is up for discussion.)

If it is ancient, is it intentionally spelling out a name - Sponsian....?
(While this seems obvious, especially, if there are several examples, looking at the blundered and sometimes random legends on coins found in places like Ukraine mean that this is not 100% guaranteed.)

If it is then who is this person? 
(The example of Regalia's comes closest to mind in terms of what "type" of Emperor.)

But even reaching this - which by no means represents a new Emperor the way most people understand that - is a big stretch.....

SC


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Offline Molinari

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2022, 11:38:14 am »
A potentially cast gold imitation from (I think) Ukraine or Romania.  Another, I think from the same region, definitely cast and weighing 11g.  These were shared by Tejas on another forum--not sure if he posts here but he has provided soe great commentary.  The second coin is ex. Leu. Clearly a presitge piece but shows wear.

While I would love for someone to do a measured response for Koinon, I don't blame anyone for not wanting to tread into these waters!

Offline Virgil H

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2022, 02:23:24 pm »
This really would make a great paper if the writer was able to cover all the bases. Everything about it, including the discussion here, is extremely interesting. I am sure there are writers that could do this justice.

Virgil

Offline Kevin D

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Re: A gold coin of a 'new' Roman emperor, Sponsianus
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2022, 08:19:58 pm »
I really want someone to take on the issue of the encrustations.  That to me could easily resolve this whole issue.  I'm tempted to bury one of my gold coins for a year and see if any encrustations appear in the recesses!

Does it really make any difference if it comes to encrustrations what noble metal the coin is consisting of?
If yes why?
Do we really have different mineral encrustrations on silver and gold coins?

If the early 18th century discovery date of these coins is accurate, perhaps the silver coins would be good to take a close look at. As we know, silver is more reactive to environmental conditions than is gold or electrum. Ancient silver coins can often show evidence of 'redeposited silver', 'horn silver', 'crystallization', etc. While modern forgers are reportedly able to replicate these, perhaps early 18th century forgers were not so skilled? If any of the silver examples of the coins in question show evidence of these environmental degradations, perhaps it would be helpful in determining their age, and have implications for the gold/electrum examples.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity