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Author Topic: Is it Provenance or Just BS?  (Read 886 times)

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Offline Virgil H

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Is it Provenance or Just BS?
« on: July 26, 2022, 01:07:33 am »
As I peruse sales on both auction and fixed price sites, I keep seeing what I would guess I would call provenance remarks in the sales listings.

For example, the one I just saw was "from collection of well known author."

Another: "Prominent NY collector."

Plenty of other examples like this. Do these nebulous descriptions actually help with selling a coin? Does anyone really care? Does it even matter and is it even honest?

Name the collector or shut up about it is how I see it. I don't see these things as actual meaningful provenance. If you name the real collector, no matter how obscure or minor, that means more to me that some BS like "well known author" or "prominent wonderful person." Why would any seller even list stuff like this? I have to admit, I am not even a fan of some of the big collections that are widely sold under some initials, yet we don't really know who the person was. I will take some obscure collector over the cryptic stuff any day. Why is this even done?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Virgil

Offline Enodia

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Re: Is it Provenance or Just BS?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2022, 01:55:10 am »
It's probably not all that sinister (my apologies to those of the left-handed persuasion). Many collectors don't want to be publicly acknowledged for any number of reasons, and while I'd also rather see a face behind the provenance it is still a valid trail back.
If a coin from the 'BCD Collection' (for example) is eventually sold a number of times through legitimate auctions, sales etc, then regardless of who BCD actually is we have a record which could serve to prove the coin is even privately ownable. (see MOU's)

~ Peter

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Is it Provenance or Just BS?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2022, 02:51:00 am »
Yeah, I get that with BCD, but "well known author?" That is the one that set me off. It appears that there are quite a few from this person's collection up for auction at the moment. LOL. I guess I would prefer something like, "from an established collection" or something. Or nothing at all would also be fine. Tell me it is from JRR Tolkien (if he collected, he probably had a great collection of Celtic and English hammered coins, LOL) and I am there, just don't tell me "well known author."

Virgil

Offline Enodia

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Re: Is it Provenance or Just BS?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2022, 03:17:50 am »
Yeah, those really vague ones are pretty meaningless, I agree.
"From the collection of a guy who lives across the street from me mum".

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle collected ancient coins, and the first auction I ever bid in was for two lots (4 coins each) with his provenance. And since my other main collecting interest is Sherlock Holmes I  REALLY wanted to win at least one lot, but it was not to be.

~ Peter

Offline mauseus

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Re: Is it Provenance or Just BS?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2022, 06:45:31 am »
It is sometimes useful keeping a note of such provenance as the information sometimes comes out.

For example, 1969 Glendinning sale "an important collection of Roman portrait coins" is now known to be the Albert Baldwin collection.

Similarly the Roma 2017 sale noted as "the academic collection of Romano-British coins of a well known connoisseur" the collector name is now known to me (but as it is a relatively recent sale I won't "out" here).

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Carausius

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Re: Is it Provenance or Just BS?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2022, 12:36:35 pm »
Agree with @Mauseus.  Many collector identities become known later, and the general collector references are a way of publicly noting that these so-listed coins are all from the same collection.  The collector may not want to be publically identified at time of sale, but the coins will be linked as part of a single collection at time of sale.  Also, the general info might help me (a notorious provenance hound) focus my searches for additional provenance info.  If a coin is from the "Collection of a German Doctor", I'll perhaps focus initial searches on German sales, etc. 

Offline Sap

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Re: Is it Provenance or Just BS?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2023, 03:14:42 am »
Assuming that it's usually done in the name of privacy, would you prefer vagueness "from a well known author" or cryptic codes that make coin collecting sound like some kind of James Bond intrigue is going down "from Agent Shadow Fox"? The cryptic code thing might get tiring, not to mention underwhelming when there secret identity eventually gets outed ("Really? You're Blue Book of Oxford?")

I would assume many of these quasi-provenance descriptors are made up by the consignor, rather than by the seller; the seller wants to put something about provenance, because that's the fashionable thing to do, but the consignor really would rather not. So the vagueness, as well as the secrecy, would be their idea.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Is it Provenance or Just BS?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2024, 07:04:43 pm »
Sometimes the provenance I put on items is at the request of the consignor. Among other things it helps him or her recognize their own coins or antiquities in the shop.
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