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Author Topic: Iovi and Herculi  (Read 5972 times)

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Offline Numerianus

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Iovi and Herculi
« on: September 11, 2005, 03:37:41 am »
To my mind, this pair of coins merits a discussion. Maximianus and Diocletianus,
officina VI of Ticinum.

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2005, 03:38:43 am »

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2005, 09:49:54 am »
Very, very similar obverses!
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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2005, 11:22:34 am »
the two sides of power.. maximianus the warrior with the reverse of hercules, represents the force and roughness of the roman legions.
on the other side, diocletianus, the main emperor issued the iovi conservatori reverse which represents the center of belief and the feeling of greatness that surounds his figure.
thats my opinion in a few words.. iam sure we could have this discussion for hours and pages.
anyways, two very nice historical coins.. very representative for the period.
best regards

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2005, 12:22:06 pm »
Nice pair of coins.

I was initially thrown by the officina numbering, but then realized that:

primary, secondary, tertiary, quaternary, quinary, senary -> P/S/T/Q/V/VI since Q & S can't be reused.

Seth, Hercules and Jupiter are on these because when Diocletian shared power with Maximianus they adopted the gods of Jupiter and Hercules respectively as their patron deities / alter egos (hence Maximianus Hercules), and when the tetrarchy was created a few years later the eastern and western halves became the Jovians and Herculeans.

Ben

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2005, 02:11:03 pm »
The system that Ben describes was created by Diocletian, and like much of the things he did, would never really work. Its failure was the result of its radical departure from the Roman tradition of family dynasties.

Evan

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2005, 07:32:52 pm »
I would say it worked phenomenally well, when one compares the duration of Diocletian's reign, and the manner of his death, with any of his predecessors over the previous half-century.

Steve

Offline wolfgang336

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2005, 09:38:52 pm »
Indeed, it did work OK for a few years, but Diocletian underestimated the time old adage that power corrupts. Things started going wrong rather quickly, although not necessarily becoming violent until later.

Evan

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2005, 11:19:30 pm »
Diocletian ended whatever personal freedom was left for most of the Roman people.  He made occupations hereditary, turning citizens into surfs. 
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Offline slokind

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2005, 12:55:07 am »
This pair of most admirable coins also conveys what makes my blood run cold in Tetrarchic art.  The art speaks.  All art speaks.  Style is the man himself (Buffon), and this style is Diocletian's.  It is exact, competent, detailed, and anti-humane, anti-personal.  It recalls to me the cold death that much of Third Reich art imposed on a superficial interpretation of the Early Classical strenge Stil of Greek art.  It uses nude figures and does not exclude the thingy, but twists and distorts everything so that it cannot be seen organically or tectonically.  Sure, some linebackers have bull necks, but this art flattens the extremely thick neck and removes all the muscles from it.  The Hercules is a quotation of the famous Weary Herakles of Lysippos, but needlessly reduces the club and the rock that he leans on to a row of dots (and this on one of the better coins).  The Jupiter, also, is a well known type, but all the sense of strength and dignity is removed.  This is not incompetent; this in not unintentional; this is not because the artists were a bunch of Siscians or Pannonians (their own traditions were quite different).  This is a deliberately, nay brilliantly, devised style to propagate the policies of Diocletian.  Books say that Diocletian implemented important reforms, but it was too late.  It was important to make reforms, and it may have been too late, but the Imperial style of propaganda shows that more than lateness was amiss.  This is Diocletian just as the Ara Pacis Augustae is Augustus!  And so I have to agree with Joe.  This art makes my blood run cold.  I love Thessaloniki, and perhaps Galerius's art is not so hard and inhuman.  But perhaps not.  Anyway, I think it is significant that Constantine the Great turned his back on this art and instead tried to re-create an Augustan classicist style.  It WAS too late for that; the Tetrarchy had broken the back of Greco-Roman art in the West.  But he tried.  Pat Lawrence.
P.S.  Less than a century earlier, and itself no masterpiece considered for the sculpture, I attach one of the same kind of Herakles for Diadumenian at Nicopolis.
P.P.S.  With apologies for haste: for 'Bacchus':
14 I 00 AE2Moesia Inferior, Nicopolis ad Istrum.  Diadoumenian, bareheaded bust to right.  Obv. legend, --]MENIANOS KAI  remains (the KAI complete).  Rev. Weary Herakles to right (for the rock, see Argos copy of Lysippos's Weary Herakles and Charles Edwards, in Personal Styles in Greek Sculpture (ed. Palagia and Pollitt), and fig. 88 there.  The magistrate's name is Longinus, and most of the city name is preserved.
When I got the coin, I didn't even own AMNG!  So now I add:
AMNG I, 1, p. 470, no. 1857.  Pick's specimen, [M OPELLI] DIADOV MENIANOS KAI, Bust with cloak and armor to r.  Rev. VP STA LONGINOV NICOPOLITÔN PROS [IC].  The reverse die, Pick reports, = 1759, but the letters lacking on specimen 1 (Munich) are taken from 2 (Mus. Arigoni 1).  No. 1759 is Macrinus's twin coin, which has a laureate head to r.  Pick knew 5 specimens for Macrinus.
Also for 'Bacchus':
11 04 03 AE 27+  Nicopolis ad Istrum.  Issued by Longinus.  Macrinus, laureate, head to r.  [AV] K M OPEL SEV      MAKREINOS (same as nos. 1723, 1737, 1741, also with heads).  Rev., nude, bearded Herakles stg. r., his right hand on his hip, his left, with the lion-skin-draped club in his armpit and thus resting on a stone (the pose of the Hercules Farnese).  VP STA LONGINOV NIKOPOLITON PROS IS.  Trait for trait and letter for letter, Pick AMNG I, 1, no. 1759 and Varbanov I, no. 2699; judging from Pick, only the Sofia ex. has equal detail and complete legend, and Varbanov's is similarly struck to this one but more worn.

Offline Bacchus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2005, 02:54:58 am »
Pat,

Would you have any good references for your Diadumenian example?  It appears to be a die match to my very worn example.

Many thanks

-:Bacchus:-

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2005, 07:12:05 am »
It  seems that the role of Diocletian is underestimated in the history, by obvious reason.
He was a  great  political  leader (by the way,  the count  of years now is just the count of years of the  Diocletian era,  shifted).  What is the Roman dynastic tradition? It was abandoned already in the 2nd century, in the pariod of adopted emperors. Returns
to the dynasic successtion of the power were disastrous (Commode, Geta and Caracalla).
It is even not clear who had a real power and the Severan periods. Clearly, the whole 3rd century  gives examples of failures to establish a dynasty.  The army could elect as emperors  brilliant military commanders (in a ``democratic" way, the electors were soldiers and the candidates were generals)  but the latter were
unable to rule the huge empire efficiently. Diocletian enterprised an extremely
courageous and deep reform  and he was willing to see how it does work.     
 
Diocletian is depicted in black color due to his  persecution of Christians.
But this is his merit. One may say, from the point of view of modern history, it is the same as blame Bush for his war against terrorists.
The Christian church was one of the most evil organization in human history.  The  Antiquity was destroyed by this organization who took the control due to a manoeuvre
of Constantine.  The Dark Ages began. 

I do not share   the idea expressed by Pat. The two coins we started our discussion is not a representative of the tetrarchy coinage.  They are  antoniniani of the early period of the reign and everything is still ahead. Stylistically,  these coins are not much different from coins of  Probus and  have the same legend.  There are members of this board who admire the coins of tetrarchy and by the reason.  I hardly beleive that they will agree with the comparison  with the art of the Third Reich.
     

     

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2005, 10:37:40 am »
Here's a slightly later tetrarchic ant again showing the emaciated Hercules and Jupiter. They appear more like Masaii warriors than powerful Greek gods! It's hard to see *this* Hercules manhandling the rock of Gibraltar!

I wonder if this depiction may have reflected the desire of Diocletian and Maximianus to themselves be seen as embodying the attributes and power of these gods - deemphasing the gods themselves. Per the bronze coinage we only see the shift from the title of IMPerator to the more godlike Dominus Noster on the abdication coinage of Diocletian and Maximianus, but http://www.roman-emperors.org/dioclet.htm refers to this occuring during Diocletian's rule, and his similarly shifting the style of the imperial court to that of an eastern monarchy.

Ben

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2005, 12:29:29 pm »
I do not see hidden sense here. The style of Antioch  mint was quite specific
(not so refined as other mints) and your coin must be compared with earlier examples, say, of  Gallienus or Claudius II and even Probus  (his efforts to improve the quality of coinage are uncontestable) of the same mint.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2005, 01:10:47 pm »
OK - thanks Numerianus. I only have a few ants myself to "set the scene" before the Constantinian era , and I havn't spent any time studying the mint styles of this period.

It seems that when the follis was first introduced the increased "canvas size" encouraged a better quality of reverse designs - incl. quite anatomically detailed deities (Genio to begin with), and this new tradition stuck as the size shrank back down to that of the ant.  On Daia's Hercvli Victori type, when the follis was back down to the size of these ants, not only do we have a detailed Hercules, but one that even copies a specific statue - the Farnese Hercules.

Ben

Offline slokind

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2005, 03:39:39 pm »
Blessed if I see anything less refined in the portrait of Constantius Chlorus!
Let's try another tack, not contradictory.  These divinities are conceptual, not visual, representations.  That is a radical change, and it is pervasive.  It is not failure to represent what a statue of Jupiter Conservator or the Lysippic type of Herakles looked like (and they were very familiar), it is a determined program to avoid showing what statues and / or living bodies looked like, to avoid using the empirical.  I do have a 'bad attitude' to these often somewhat elegant coins, so I only have a few, but I post one (admittedly bought for the Sol in hand).  A nice big follis.  But I wouldn't call this a 'portrait' at all, except in the sense that even cubist 'portraits' are such.  I don't have a good ref., because I don't own those books.  Haven't looked in ERIC, though.
09 03 01 AE3 (20.09mm); 4.8g.  Maximinus II (AD 309-313).  "Follis", laureate head to r., IMP C GAL VAL MAXIMINVS PF AVGRev., Nude Genius Augusti (cloak around shoulders) stg. l., wearing modius, with cornucopiae in crook of his l. arm, holding head of Sol on the palm of his r. hand.  GENIO AVGVSTI and, in exergue, ANT; in left field, star and, in right field, Z.
Pat L.

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2005, 08:55:18 am »
Sometimes, Sol is holding the head of  Genius  :):

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2005, 09:55:22 am »
Actually Sol is holding the head of Serapis rather than Genius. You can distinguish these because Serapis has a beard. Max Daia "localized" his Genio Avgvsti type for Antioch with head of Sol and Alexandria with head of Serapis. On his Soli/e Invicto type Sol seems to be holding the head of Serapis (at all mints it was made, which doesn't include Alexandria) out of deference to this other major god of Daia's domain.

Here's my Genio Avgvsti from Alexandria.

Ben

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2005, 11:06:03 am »
I  would prefer not to condemn the art of Tetrarchy.  Of course, it is a conceptual and  revolutionary one.



Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2005, 12:08:02 pm »
The Christian church was one of the most evil organization in human history.  The  Antiquity was destroyed by this organization who took the control due to a manoeuvre
of Constantine.  The Dark Ages began. 

Hi Numerianus,

is it your belief or you tried to reconstruct the late pagan mind?
Lech Stępniewski
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Offline slokind

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2005, 02:33:43 pm »
Is Antioch (a favorite city of mine, purely for associative reasons) the only mint with that wonderful robed and gesturing Sol holding the iconic head of Serapis, which of course it is?  I want one, too!  Are they rare?  I'm not being inconsitent: I also am interested in iconography.
Pat L.

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2005, 02:42:24 pm »
No, they aren't rare. You will find many of them, and they are not very expensive, even in really nice condition. I'll send you a PM.

Lars
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2005, 04:47:30 pm »
Here are Max Daia and Constantine I from Antioch with Genius holding the head of Sol, both RIC 164. I'll have to look out for the others as well, since it's an interesting series.
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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2005, 05:00:04 pm »
Hi Pat,

coins with Sol holding the head of Serapis are basically not rare. They were minted on East: in Nicomedia, Cyzicus, Antiochia and Alexandria. And here is an example from issue minted in Heraclea in 313 when Maximinus Daia captured town for few weeks. This issue is very rare and additionally coin comes from unlisted officina. Not in perfect condition, but you can see the details of the long robe.
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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Iovi and Herculi
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2005, 01:33:04 am »
On my example I cannot read the mint mark.

 

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