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Author Topic: Magnentius majorina  (Read 1126 times)

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Offline DzikiZdeb

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Magnentius majorina
« on: January 14, 2022, 02:09:24 am »
I'm not proficient with 4th century coins, so I don't know very well what to do with this case:
I found three different Magnentius coins from the same dies with a characteristic error on the reverse - the first line is mirror-inverted, in the third one letter "L" is inverted, and in the fourth, there is a cross instead of X. It seems to be an imitation from antiquity, but since they are all well preserved, can't it be a contemporary product intended to interest collectors?


https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=422707

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3956213

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=834730

Offline Hydatius

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2022, 08:20:27 am »
They aren't official, that's for sure!

Richard
Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine quam turpe nescire.

Offline SC

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2022, 09:19:47 am »
They are clearly not cast as the portion on the flan varies.

They have very little if any wear.

So, to me, the only likely scenarios are:

- modern fake die used to strike coins to deceive

or

- a recently discovered hoard from an ancient unofficial die.

If they were just random finds all from the same die one would not expect the wear to be the same.

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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2022, 12:02:19 pm »
a recently discovered hoard from an ancient unofficial die.
As for hoard, the time intervals between auctions are a bit too long.

First appeared #3: sold in Germany in 2005:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=266089
then in France in 2007.

#1 and #2 were sold in Belgium respectively in 2010 and 2014.

In 2018 in other German house sold something like this:


https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4967542

What could it be? Cast copy from #2?

Offline SC

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2022, 12:50:16 pm »
Hard to tell from the photo but it doesn't look like a cast to me it looks like a poorly struck coin.

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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2022, 01:27:55 pm »
It's hard to say for sure, but at photo I fount at sixbid archive the surface seems quite porous.

https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com/#/de/search?text=&companyId=c1108&auctionId=a31835&lotNumber=298&modal=true

Offline SC

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2022, 01:36:07 pm »
If it is cast then the liquid metal made its way fully into the majority of the very fine spaces - hair and lettering - while failing to make its way fully into the very broad spaces of the face and victory.  Much more likely in my opinion that this was struck without sufficient force in one area.

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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2022, 02:44:29 pm »
Looks to be the same dies as the imiations published in Bastien and cited in several of the acsearch entries as Bastien plate 18, No. 41.

Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2022, 02:49:49 am »
Much more likely in my opinion that this was struck without sufficient force in one area.
I think you are right. So we have four coins from the same dies, virtually unused.

Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2022, 02:51:49 am »
Looks to be the same dies as the imiations published in Bastien and cited in several of the acsearch entries as Bastien plate 18, No. 41.
I can't find anything on acsearch with these Bastien references, could you give some examples?

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2022, 04:18:38 am »
Each of the acsearch coins you show above cite that reference. I will try and scn the plate example to share too.

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2022, 04:35:22 am »
Attached

Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2022, 06:12:17 am »
Each of the acsearch coins you show above cite that reference. I will try and scn the plate example to share too.
Thank you, I definitely should wear glasses :-) And I am not defended by the fact that in two places only the plate number was given, and in the third, Bastien was shortened to "B".

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2022, 11:17:30 am »
So we have four coins from the same dies, virtually unused.

Possibly all from the same find. Maybe forgers hid some of their products, then were caught and so only forger's hoard remained.
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Offline SC

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2022, 04:37:30 pm »
The time spread of the coins coming to market is odd.

Either very good modern forgeries being dolled out bit by bit over more than a decade or a hoard of genuine contemporary imitations that was found and dispersed long enough ago that the coins are re-entering the market bit by bit.

Such die duplicates are a huge red flag but I don't see any definitive sign from the photos that says they must be modern.....

It would be nice to have them all in hand.

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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2022, 05:20:53 pm »
There are similar imitations of Decentius that seem to have come on to the market over a spread period. I bought the following coin a couple of years back.



Published in Bastien so known to date back to the 1960s

Other examples can be seen on acsearch 2006, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018, 2020, 2021

Offline DzikiZdeb

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2022, 11:07:53 am »
There are similar imitations of Decentius that seem to have come on to the market over a spread period. I bought the following coin a couple of years back.
These imitations look like they are from the same workshop, so if they have been known since the 1960s, it will be an argument in their favor. Then the original hoard could be sold, and modern auctions are probably secondary appearances of these coins on the market.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2022, 12:00:31 pm »
The second specimen (the green one) was sold with description: "Bastien, Magnence, 41 (cet exemplaire, provient de la région lyonnaise)".
Maybe because both have this intriguing TOV on reverse. But the flans are apparently different.

What all these coins have in common is this nice cross below MVLT instead of common X. I'm still surprised that a forger who had to be able to count, did not know how to write 10.
Lech Stępniewski
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Offline SC

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2022, 08:21:55 am »
I think that at certain times and places an + was acceptable as a x just as 9 could be VIIII or IX.  Not on official coins of course but perhaps more in common use.

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Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2022, 08:41:25 am »
There are several coins of Probus, particularly from Siscia where X has been replaced with +

Here is a typical XXI



Here are a couple where the X is more like a +. Some are more extreme than others.




Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2022, 08:44:39 am »
I think that at certain times and places an + was acceptable as a x just as 9 could be VIIII or IX.  Not on official coins of course but perhaps more in common use.

It seems to me a risky hypothesis that it was acceptable in common use. You can find VIIII/IX on official inscriptions but not such crosses which are rather the sign of surprising level of illiteracy.
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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Magnentius majorina
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2022, 08:50:42 am »
There are several coins of Probus, particularly from Siscia where X has been replaced with +

In my opinion it is rather a case of careless or hasty engraving. And all these crosses are at least slightly sloped while crosses on Magnentius' imitations are just regular crosses.
Lech Stępniewski
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