FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
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Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers => Topic started by: kklinejr on December 20, 2003, 09:30:23 am
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OK, by now those who have been reading this section or the forgery section of FORVM will note that several members have been discovering mass produced fakes in some of their batches. The coins are all of a very similar style, and should be somewhat easy to discern from genuine pieces. However, now that the discovery has been made, and many coins are being returned to their retailers and suppliers, it will only be a matter of time before the coins become more and more difficult to pick out with better die making procedures (yes, it is a very long shot that someone would take so much time to produce common Fel Temps, but since it has already been done for someone's great profit, it will only be a matter of time before someone else tries to make better, more convincing dies- good old human nature at its best).
We'll keep this post here as a small database of known examples- simply pieces to keep an eye out for. Please note, it is the opinion of most that these are not ancient barbaric imititations, but rather mass produced copies usually produced on copper planchets within the past few months or so.
Ken :)
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Lee Johnson , aka OLDCOINMAN (one of eBay's most respected uncleaned dealers), has been nice enough to send these images of some examples he has discovered and returned to the European suppliers.
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I doubt the problem will ever reach dangerous proportions personally. Now that the chase is on, so to speak, for the culprits, and more people look closely at their uncleaned lots, it will become increasingly difficult to manufacture enough forgeries cheap enough to fool sufficient peopel to make it worthwhile.
LordBest. 8)
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Another group of coins discovered by FORVM member 60_Driver. Thank you for the pictures.
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Thanks for the scans, Brian.
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Yes, LB, I too agree that it would be ridiculous for someone to go through such great expense to create better dies for such little profit...however, there are always those one or two folks who get that "lightbulb" in the head and think it will make them a great profit. For collectors, they are more of an annoyance than a serious problem. Perhaps by putting out our feelers, the practice will simply cease...one can only hope.
Ken :)
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VRBS ROMA "Wolf and Twins" Example.
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Reverse
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CONSTANTINOPOLI "Victory with Shield Reverse" Example
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Reverse
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If someone is in regular contact with Mr Johnson, how about reporting back what his supplier (or supplier's supplier) has to say about the coins being returned. Coming from a specific country, a certain dealer, 'I had no idea', whatever...
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I doubt the problem will ever reach dangerous proportions personally. Now that the chase is on, so to speak, for the culprits, and more people look closely at their uncleaned lots, it will become increasingly difficult to manufacture enough forgeries cheap enough to fool sufficient peopel to make it worthwhile.
LordBest. 8)
I bet the 95% of all people who buy uncleaned coins and never come here have no doubt about the authenticity of their "fake" coins. Everyone talks always about the fact that forging coins is supposed to be expensive. In this case making the dies would have been your only cost. How much? 100$? If you're experienced you do it even yourself.
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And make the fakes so obvious that people will eventually notice and the whole thing will come unravelled. No, there is no threat from these at all.
LordBest. 8)
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Fake Jovians...
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Fake Jovian reverses....
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Fake Byzhantyan nummiae
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Fake Byzhantyan reverses...
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More she-wolf fakes...
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The reverse
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Tacitus,
That's a fine idea. Chip, the photos of the coins you posted were all authentic pieces to our eyes...in fact, I am envious. Several of them had very good detailing!!! We moved them out of this section to avoid confusion with the current fakes being discussed.
Thanks!
Ken :)
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Here is the website that Bob Bischoff was kind enough to generate since he received many of these in his last shipment from Europe. It is a great page outlining the basics on these pieces.
Ken :)
http://members.aol.com/petronicoins/uncleanedfakes.html (http://members.aol.com/petronicoins/uncleanedfakes.html)
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Well I just received 30 'crusties' in the mail today and ALL 30 were fakes of this kind. Here is a scan after a super brief encounter with a toothbrush. I only scanned 18 of them and cant be bothered with the reverses or with the other 12. Someone needs to beat the heck out of whoever is doing this. Note the crappy style and the modern legends.
I am really PO'd now.
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These coins run the gamut. Lots of different late empire rulers and types are here. They came with a full layer of dirt, but looked VERY conspicuous as a grouping as they all had the same size/coloration. They werent true crusties as they go with no lumpy/concrete type encrustations. I called them crusties only because they were advertised as such. The green you see can be easily removed with a bit more scrubbing but I really wont bother.
Their current appearance is after about 3-4 swipes with a toothbrush and distilled water each. Seriously.
And yes the dealer has a money-back policy. If it were 3 or 4 coins out of 30 I might have let it go, but honestly my 2 year old daughter could have seen an issue with these coins even before a toothbrush. I mean, the V's are modern V's...no attempt at all to make any letter look ancient.
I would suggest a LYE bath for whoever made these and passed them on. But Evan (Wolfgang) might get mad at me! Haha..
RD
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Notice the largest coin I posted, the Justinian is a perfect match for this coin that appears on the webpage Ken links us to. I dub him Cyclops.
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uh oh. This coin looks familiar. This seller has some really overcleaned (zapped) coins and this one looks like our fake. What do you think?
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You know, I guess I just never wanted to run the numbers in my head before, but counterfeiting even the most common coins, such as these, can produce huge profit increases for a European wholesaler. If it costs 5-10 cents a pop to produce one of these (after dies/casts, copper purchase and repatination), and the average supplier sells them at 65 cents - $1.00 each... the profit margin per piece could be anywhere from 60 - 95 cents. Multiply thaty profit by an order of 1000 or 10000, and we're looking at $600-950 profit per small order of 1000, and up to maybe $6500 for a large 10,000 coin order. Now, of course, they would mix these in with real uncleaned ancients, but a wholesaler could double both his stock and his profit with these cheap, little things - IF, and ONLY IF, NO ONE NOTICED THEM ;D ;D ;)
Ken
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I apologize for the poor quality of the pictures. I found a total of 14 fakes from my last two groups of coins. The first pictures are two of three identical Licinius Juniors. Too bad. All the coins being pictured have been re-toned.
Stan
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the reverses
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A very nice...I thought...pair of Justinian I Byzantine coins.
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reverse
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A pair of Constantines.
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reverses
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And last, but not least, a pair of Constans campgates showing different obverses but identical reverses. One looks "almost" correct, but the reverse isn't right.
I haven't listed the other fakes since they have been well documented already, but I seem to have them all.
Stan
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reverses
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A nice Septimus Severus from Moesia with what's supposed to be an eagle reverse. Maybe this one was intended to be an advertising token for Kentucky Fried Chicken.
Stan
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And now for the chicken....
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Dear FORVM members,
I am a new collector and recently purchased a bulk lot of uncleaneds. I found the following coin in the lot (see attached image), and given the flurry of posts on modern fakes, I thought I’d post this one to the list and ask for your help. I sent a .JPG of the coin to the (very reputable) dealer first, and he felt the coin was likely genuine since the recent forgeries tend to be larger than this coin. But I told him that, all the same, I’d post to this discussion board for a second opinion, especially since this was my first purchase of uncleaned coins for personal use. (I had purchased some of FORVM’s uncleaneds for use in a class I taught this semester.) The coin had no patina. It had a thin coating of green goo that scraped off with a fingernail. Underneath, the coin was as shiny as a new penny, and the face on the obverse seemed to have a smudge. So. Is this a fake, or a genuine Constantinople Commemorative? P.S., I’ve never sent an image to the board (indeed, this is my second post ever), so I hope it comes through.
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Yours is a fake, no question. If the dealer has any doubt that it is a fake, send him this way to look at all the examples posted!
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If you follow one of the links from earlier in this thread you will find an example which is all too similar to your definate fake. with the same TR dot S exe.
Maridvnvm
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I recently recieved these 3 coins from Ben's $2.00 lot. 1st a Sept Severus , 2nd Justinian II, 3rd a campgate. These coins are pretty much the same color as I received them, and took little time to clean. All 3 coins show some wear and had a bit of the
green ancient coin crud that took a bit of time to remove. When you refer to modern fakes , How modern are we talking about?
The Severus and the Justinian II look pretty close to examples shown here. The campgate portrait is a bit strange would this fit into the uncleaned fake category?see next post for scan of the campgate) It would be a shame if all 3 coins are fakes. They were the best coins in the lot :'(
Mike
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And the campgate.
Mike
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The Justinian looks similar to one I have that is fake. :(
Does it appear to be made of metal other than bronze, such as copper?
Take a look at mine.....
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I have two of these coins and posted pictures of them in an earlier thread. (The third is a Severus. My Severus has a different reverse, but your style has been posted by others) They are all certainly the same fakes that we've all been getting. Sorry. :-[
Stan
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Here is another one that I haven't seen anywhere yet. It is the first one that pertained to my area (I was feeling a little left out for a while) so I did buy it on purpose. It also seems to be one of the only ones that I know for sure never ocurred in nature, so to speak. It also is heavily clipped with, what, tin snips? They are pretty rough clippings. They must have been running out of metal for these things at some point.
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I finally identify a coin, and its a fake. This did not come from Ben's BTW. There is another I was wondering about, but it does not scan well. Looks funny wet, but dries "dusty" looking.
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The reverse...
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Hi everybody,
I just finished weeding out every stinkin one of the things from what I had on hand. Out of approx. 5,000 coins on hand, I ended up with 1,500 fakes. I have confronted my supplier, who of course begged ignorance and innocence. I can assure you the forgers are running scared and obviously underestimated the ancient coin-buying community. They will certainly NOT circulate any more of these things. But the bad news is, they will probably use it as a learning experience, try to figure out what made them so easily detectable, and keep trying to perfect it. IMO, anyway.
I'll have scans posted soon, but use this primer as your guide to weeding out the fakes. And if any of you bought them from me, please return them immediately and I will replace them along with a few bonus coins for the hassle. I inadvertently sent out a lot of them, but can guarantee that not a single one will be sent out by me again!
Best,
Ben
HOW TO DETECT THE MODERN FAKES
As for detecting the fakes, in the process of culling them all out of my lots I discovered just how obvious they are. I got more and more embarassed as I went. There is really no need to try and compare inscriptions/types, because they are VERY easy to spot, even when completely crusted. You just need to know what to look for. They can be spotted just by their shape, without even having to look at the inscriptions. Out of about 5,000 coins on hand that I "disinfected," I ended up with a staggering 1,500 fakes! Anyone that feels they only found one or two out of a purchase of 20+, PLEASE read the below primer very carefully! I'll still post scans of every type I found, but here's the skinny on how to spot them.................
The most important thing to realize is that these fakes were CAST, not struck. They have a UNIFORM THICKNESS from middle to edge (genuine ones tend to slope downwards and thin out towards the edges), and the edge is ROUNDED, THICK and SMOOTH, not jagged, skinny and sharp like genuine coins. There is NO CHIPPING on the flan - they are SMOOTH, PRISTINE, ROUNDED edges. That's the biggest giveaway. Look at the edges to spot them. They also have a greenish tint to most of them, but NOT ALL of them. They are a good deal thicker than genuine coins. And most (but not all) are in the AE3 size range. Once you have successfully identified a few of them, they practically jump right out at you. Lay one next to a genuine one and the differences will be very obvious.
I still plan to post comprehensive scans of every fake type I found, but remember that THE SHAPE is the best way to pick them out.
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I ended up with fifteen fakes out of a hundred in David's lot. Here are the obverses; I've only done minimal cleaning.
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And the reverses.
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Its not a big deal really, one in six. I still have 85 genuine coins. My biggest concern is really to warn him so that he doesn't send out more without realising.
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I get them from all over, California, New Jersey, Ohio, California sent me 15 out of 50, the dealer thought it was funny because he said he got some too, and thats the way it goes.
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Well, being a bit of a Fel Temp freak (still looking for a (genuine) "kneeling" by the way :D) it seems that the honour of posting a fake Fel Temp suitably falls to me ;D
I deliberately bought the coins in these next 3 pictures as fakes from David - they were all he had received back so far that he could let me have (he kept a dozen for himself).
The Fel Temp is a bit disappointing. You can only see a bit of the horse's rear end and the soldier, bent knee very low down but it's definitely a Fel Temp (-PARATIO...)
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My computer or should I say Windows ME - that eternally Damned Object of Pity - packed up AGAIN just after I posted that one pic (I think it's a problem with the USB ports) so here are the other pics. Maybe. My Windows Explorer is already looking weird..
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Next 3... bought deliberately as fakes, may I repeat..
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And the last 3..
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I get them from all over, California, New Jersey, Ohio, California sent me 15 out of 50, the dealer thought it was funny because he said he got some too, and thats the way it goes.
i got similar too.
VALENS VOT XX!!! Oh common... :-\
They were in uncleaned lot completely covered with dirt...? Not sure how they make them look like that!