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Author Topic: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos  (Read 11757 times)

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Offline Meepzorp

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Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« on: December 21, 2013, 09:54:25 am »
Hi folks,

This thread is about the MFB that is found on Neapolis coins. For centuries, it has been widely assumed that this MFB is Achelous. But Nick seems to feel that it is a different MFB, probably Sebethos.

I recently purchased Rutter's book "Campanian Coinages". I've been reading it lately because I finally have some free time (now that my niece has stopped bugging me about helping her with her homework :)). On pages 42-45, Rutter discusses this controversy. First, he determines that the bull represents a river-god. If a local god is represented, the best candidate would be the stream Sebethos, which flowed close to Neapolis. Rutter feels that this god may be the one chosen for the reverse types of the early didrachms and obols. But, for all other Neapolitan coins, Rutter argues that a second possibility must be considered: that the bull does not represent a local river, but Achelous, the greatest river-god of the Greek world. The Achelous was the longest river of mainland Greece.

The evidence from works of art is proof that the cult of Achelous was established in south Italy at the time when Neapolis was being founded. There is also the story that Achelous was the father of the Sirens, who sprang from the drops of blood that fell on the Earth when Herakles wounded Achelous by breaking off one of his horns. There was a sanctuary of the Sirens on the Sorrento peninsular. At Neapolis, there was the temple of Parthenope herself, and the festival of Parthenope. This is evidence of the flourishing state of the cult in the second half of the fifth century, the period when Neapolitan coinage began. The combined evidence of art, myth, religion, and history supports strongly the view that the female head on the obverses of Neapolitan didrachms represents the Siren Parthenope, and that the MFB on the reverses represents Achelous rather than a purely local river-god.

Any thoughts?

Meepzorp

Offline JBF

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2013, 10:54:18 am »
It is a little circular, isn't it??  The female head has to be the siren Parthenope because the man-faced bull is Achelous, the man-faced bull is Achelous because the nymph has to be Parthenope?  Sure it is a _little_ grounded out because there is a temple of Parthenope there.  Rutter is a careful scholar, I think that he has looked at the evidence and come up with a good theory, given that evidence.  The evidence is by no means conclusive (and there is (so far)) just not a lot of it, therefore, I think a good question does Rutter have a good feel, a good instinct for the material.

Me, I would tend to cover my beats and say that it is _probably_ Parthenope and Achelous, or that according to Rutter, it is Parthenope and Achelous.  Or for the earlier stuff, Sebethos.  But of course, anyone who is knowledgable about Greek stuff, will know that it is often not possible to get very specific on attributions, and those who are not knowledgeable should probably just be told that man-faced bulls are river gods (although I think that is not necessarily always so).

Taras

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2013, 12:10:41 pm »
I agree with Rutter (and Isler's) Achelous hypothesis.
I totally disagree with Taylor's theory concerning Sebethos, which is built on the single evidence of a fractional minted in Neapolis with the type of a young man with little horns and the legend Sebethos (a little river that watered Neapolis). As established by the scholars of the L.I.N. project lead by prof. Caltabiano, local rivers in Greek Italy are often depicted as young not bearded men with little horns.
The man faced bull is another thing.
When thinking of MFB we must try to "think in Greek".
Achelous was not simply a river. It was a symbol of great complexity, as I wrote here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=92708.msg575983#msg575983
Especially in Etruria and Greek Italy the symbol of the MFB was loaded with meanings that went far beyond its original personification of a river god.
The MFB depicted on the coins minted at Neapolis has nothing to do with a river, like the nike that crowns him has nothing to do with the victory of that river (victory over whom?)... and it's better to overfly on the ridiculous theory by Taylor, who sees the ancient Greeks devoted to the worship of Herakles as if they were the supporters of a modern football club.
History can help us.
The first greek urban settlement founded on the site of modern Naples was named "Parthenope", as reported by many ancient authors (Lutatius Catulus, Strabo, Virgilius, Ovidius, etc). The most recent historical theories, supported by many archaeological evidences, claim that Parthenope was early founded, some years after Pithecusa (the first Greek western apoikia) and Cumae (the first Italian apoikia), in the VIII-VII c. b.C.
Parthenope was later destroyed by the Cumaeans, for unclear reasons. According to some authors Parthenope was founded by dissidents Cumaean aristocrats, and for this reason was later destroyed by the Metropolis, or maybe because with its trades Parthenope threatened the economic interests of Cumae on the area.
The city was re-founded, as Nea-polis (new-city), at the time of the athenian Diotimo came to Italy in the mid-fifth century BC. The citizens of the new-city were the descendants of Cumaeans aristocrats who lived at Parthenope, plus Athenian and Pithecusan aristocrats.
Well, today it is clear from all sources that the Nea-politans, since the refoundation of the city, in their every manifestation of art and culture they continued for centuries to enhance autonomy against Cuma.
About Numismatics... for centuries they minted coins depicting the manfaced bull, often crowned by a nike.
Achelous was a symbol of rebirth... Nea-polis, reborn from the ruins of Parthenope... founded by a fair and proud aristocracy... whose symbol we can see in the crowning nike (sign of "arete", sign of sacred sovereignty). Also the crown, in its circularity, is a sign of cyclical rebirth.
I think this is the way to approach ancient Greeks and their art. Achelous, as chthonic symbol linked to the cycle life-death-rebirth... hired as a symbol of the city on the coins of Neapolis... a city "chthonic" par excellence... remember how Virgil located the entrance to the realm of Ades quite in Neapolis, at the Flegrean fields.
I lived in Naples seven years of my life, still today the popular Christian religion is commingled with pagan beliefs related to chthonic cults of the dead... but this is another thread.

Bye friends, have a good week-end
:)
Nico




Offline Molinari

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2013, 12:51:03 pm »
I wish I had more time to reply, but today I celebrate Christmas with my family and tomorrow we take the baby to Florida to see the wife's family!

I'm actually working on an essay with Taras now about the man-faced bull's identity.  I'm starting to lean toward Rutter, Jenkins, and originally Ignarra's view of the Campanian man-faced bull as Achelous, but Taylor's argument is a little more involved than Taras says ;)Still, Achelous is most likely for Campania, and certainly more plausible than the other theories (Neptune, the Minotaur, Dionysus Hebon, Dionysus Zagreus, etc.).

More later, perhaps from a sunny beach in Fort Myers!

Taras

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2013, 02:12:32 pm »
I wish I had more time to reply, but today I celebrate Christmas with my family and tomorrow we take the baby to Florida to see the wife's family!

I'm actually working on an essay with Taras now about the man-faced bull's identity.  I'm starting to lean toward Rutter, Jenkins, and originally Ignarra's view of the Campanian man-faced bull as Achelous, but Taylor's argument is a little more involved than Taras says ;)Still, Achelous is most likely for Campania, and certainly more plausible than the other theories (Neptune, the Minotaur, Dionysus Hebon, Dionysus Zagreus, etc.).

More later, perhaps from a sunny beach in Fort Myers!

Hi buddy, have a nice Christmas trip to Florida :)
You are right to say that I too roughly summarized Taylor's theories. I must say I read his work with a little annoyance, and maybe I haven't grasped the substance of his arguments... luckily we are two of us working on the issue (and I am very honored and grateful to you my friend for your invitation to collaborate), so we can stimulate each other.
I'll wait for your reply to redeem Taylor to my eyes, from that sunny beach (or later after holidays), enviously from my snow-covered town. ;)
Best.


Nico

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2013, 08:06:06 pm »
The first greek urban settlement founded on the site of modern Naples was named "Parthenope", as reported by many ancient authors (Lutatius Catulus, Strabo, Virgilius, Ovidius, etc). The most recent historical theories, supported by many archaeological evidences, claim that Parthenope was early founded, some years after Pithecusa (the first Greek western apoikia) and Cumae (the first Italian apoikia), in the VIII-VII c. b.C.
Parthenope was later destroyed by the Cumaeans, for unclear reasons. According to some authors Parthenope was founded by dissidents Cumaean aristocrats, and for this reason was later destroyed by the Metropolis, or maybe because with its trades Parthenope threatened the economic interests of Cumae on the area.
The city was re-founded, as Nea-polis (new-city), at the time of the athenian Diotimo came to Italy in the mid-fifth century BC. The citizens of the new-city were the descendants of Cumaeans aristocrats who lived at Parthenope, plus Athenian and Pithecusan aristocrats.
Well, today it is clear from all sources that the Nea-politans, since the refoundation of the city, in their every manifestation of art and culture they continued for centuries to enhance autonomy against Cuma.
About Numismatics... for centuries they minted coins depicting the manfaced bull, often crowned by a nike.
Achelous was a symbol of rebirth... Nea-polis, reborn from the ruins of Parthenope... founded by a fair and proud aristocracy... whose symbol we can see in the crowning nike (sign of "arete", sign of sacred sovereignty). Also the crown, in its circularity, is a sign of cyclical rebirth.
I think this is the way to approach ancient Greeks and their art. Achelous, as chthonic symbol linked to the cycle life-death-rebirth... hired as a symbol of the city on the coins of Neapolis... a city "chthonic" par excellence... remember how Virgil located the entrance to the realm of Ades quite in Neapolis, at the Flegrean fields.

Bye friends, have a good week-end
:)
Nico





Hi Taras,

It is interesting that the Cumaeans destroyed early Parthenope/Neapolis. I never knew that. I remember reading (I think in Rutter) that the city of Cumae was destroyed, and its inhabitants moved to Neapolis. I guess the latter occurred later than the former. But, if the Cumaeans destroyed early Parthenope/Neapolis, why would the residents of the new Neapolis let them in when Cumae was destroyed? Wouldn't they harbor resentment towards them?

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2013, 08:44:44 pm »
I lived in Naples seven years of my life, still today the popular Christian religion is commingled with pagan beliefs related to chthonic cults of the dead... but this is another thread.

Bye friends, have a good week-end
:)
Nico





Hi Taras,

I didn't know that you lived in Naples for 7 years. That's interesting. As you may know, my maternal grandparents came from the Naples area. They were from the town of Maddaloni.

I don't know exactly what you are referring to when you mention the "pagan...cults of the dead". I do know that many people of Neapolitan descent (like my mother, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.) believe in a thing called "the horns" or "giving someone the horns". And they often make a gesture with their hands that looks like a bull's horns. In fact, when I was a kid, one of my uncles used to have one of those "horn" hand gesture things hanging from the rear-view mirror of his car. This may (or may not) be a reference to Achelous. I don't know. I'm just guessing here. My relatives probably wouldn't be aware of that connection. They just know it as "the horns" and as something that was passed down from generation to generation. They are totally oblivious to the Achelous connection, if there ever was one to begin with. My mother and her relatives have never even heard of Achelous. When I ask, they say, "What the hell is that?!!!" They don't know about Achelous, but they know all about "the horns".

And there is something else they do that is somewhat related to "the horns". It is called "the over-looks". There is an Italian word for it that starts with the letter "m". I know how to pronounce it, but I don't know how to spell it. It is pronounced: "mel-oiks". It basically involves saying a prayer where you say the number "9" repeatedly over and over and over again. The goal of this prayer is two-fold. First, it is supposed to relieve headaches. Second, it is supposed to transfer "the horns" from the afflicted person to another person, preferably to the person gave you "the horns" (or one of his/her relatives or friends) in the first place.

I don't know if this is what you were referring to when you mentioned "pagan...cults of the dead". Were you? If yes, can you please explain the connection between dead people and "the horns" thing (which appears to be a reference to Achelous). If not, can you explain?

Thank you.

Meepzorp

Taras

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2013, 07:43:37 am »
Quote from: Meepzorp on December 21, 2013, 08:06:06 pm
The first greek urban settlement founded on the site of modern Naples was named "Parthenope", as reported by many ancient authors (Lutatius Catulus, Strabo, Virgilius, Ovidius, etc). The most recent historical theories, supported by many archaeological evidences, claim that Parthenope was early founded, some years after Pithecusa (the first Greek western apoikia) and Cumae (the first Italian apoikia), in the VIII-VII c. b.C.
Parthenope was later destroyed by the Cumaeans, for unclear reasons. According to some authors Parthenope was founded by dissidents Cumaean aristocrats, and for this reason was later destroyed by the Metropolis, or maybe because with its trades Parthenope threatened the economic interests of Cumae on the area.
The city was re-founded, as Nea-polis (new-city), at the time of the athenian Diotimo came to Italy in the mid-fifth century BC. The citizens of the new-city were the descendants of Cumaeans aristocrats who lived at Parthenope, plus Athenian and Pithecusan aristocrats.
Well, today it is clear from all sources that the Nea-politans, since the refoundation of the city, in their every manifestation of art and culture they continued for centuries to enhance autonomy against Cuma.
About Numismatics... for centuries they minted coins depicting the manfaced bull, often crowned by a nike.
Achelous was a symbol of rebirth... Nea-polis, reborn from the ruins of Parthenope... founded by a fair and proud aristocracy... whose symbol we can see in the crowning nike (sign of "arete", sign of sacred sovereignty). Also the crown, in its circularity, is a sign of cyclical rebirth.
I think this is the way to approach ancient Greeks and their art. Achelous, as chthonic symbol linked to the cycle life-death-rebirth... hired as a symbol of the city on the coins of Neapolis... a city "chthonic" par excellence... remember how Virgil located the entrance to the realm of Ades quite in Neapolis, at the Flegrean fields.

Bye friends, have a good week-end
:)
Nico





Hi Taras,

It is interesting that the Cumaeans destroyed early Parthenope/Neapolis. I never knew that. I remember reading (I think in Rutter) that the city of Cumae was destroyed, and its inhabitants moved to Neapolis. I guess the latter occurred later than the former. But, if the Cumaeans destroyed early Parthenope/Neapolis, why would the residents of the new Neapolis let them in when Cumae was destroyed? Wouldn't they harbor resentment towards them?

Meepzorp


Hi Meepzorp,
I don't know what destruction you are referring to... the ancient Cumae was not destroyed in ancient times, but it unscathed across a period of about 1900 years, from the Greeks (VIII - end V), to Campanians (V - half IV), to Romans (IV - half VI AD), to Byzantine (VI AD ...). The ancient site was destroyed in 1216, for irony of history, by... Neapolitans (because Cumae had become a Saracen stronghold).
If you refer to the Campanians occupation of Cumae (421), we should consider that ancient Greeks often quarreled among themselves, but then, at least until the Hellenistic period, they tended to be sympathetic against the barbarians, so I believe to ancient sources (like Dionys Hal., XV, 6, 4) when they tell us of some Cumaeans who found refuge in Neapolis after the occupation of the city by the Campanian barbarians.




Quote from: Meepzorp on December 21, 2013, 08:44:44 pm
I lived in Naples seven years of my life, still today the popular Christian religion is commingled with pagan beliefs related to chthonic cults of the dead... but this is another thread.

Bye friends, have a good week-end
:)
Nico





Hi Taras,

I didn't know that you lived in Naples for 7 years. That's interesting. As you may know, my maternal grandparents came from the Naples area. They were from the town of Maddaloni.

I don't know exactly what you are referring to when you mention the "pagan...cults of the dead". I do know that many people of Neapolitan descent (like my mother, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.) believe in a thing called "the horns" or "giving someone the horns". And they often make a gesture with their hands that looks like a bull's horns. In fact, when I was a kid, one of my uncles used to have one of those "horn" hand gesture things hanging from the rear-view mirror of his car. This may (or may not) be a reference to Achelous. I don't know. I'm just guessing here. My relatives probably wouldn't be aware of that connection. They just know it as "the horns" and as something that was passed down from generation to generation. They are totally oblivious to the Achelous connection, if there ever was one to begin with. My mother and her relatives have never even heard of Achelous. When I ask, they say, "What the hell is that?!!!" They don't know about Achelous, but they know all about "the horns".

And there is something else they do that is somewhat related to "the horns". It is called "the over-looks". There is an Italian word for it that starts with the letter "m". I know how to pronounce it, but I don't know how to spell it. It is pronounced: "mel-oiks". It basically involves saying a prayer where you say the number "9" repeatedly over and over and over again. The goal of this prayer is two-fold. First, it is supposed to relieve headaches. Second, it is supposed to transfer "the horns" from the afflicted person to another person, preferably to the person gave you "the horns" (or one of his/her relatives or friends) in the first place.

I don't know if this is what you were referring to when you mentioned "pagan...cults of the dead". Were you? If yes, can you please explain the connection between dead people and "the horns" thing (which appears to be a reference to Achelous). If not, can you explain?

Thank you.

Meepzorp


...about the issue "modern pagan Naples", it is really very complex and difficult for me to summarize in English, about ten years ago I made a video-documentary on the argument, but unfortunately I have not the subtitled english version with me, I think that the University of Napoli has a copy.
Meepzorz, you caught some of the most interesting aspects of the question, first of all: modern Neapolitans continue to "perform" ancient Greek rituals without knowing why they do it, and without knowing the ancient Greek origins of their actions.
Not only the "horns" and the "malocchio", but also much more complex rituals, covered with a Christian patina... I refere to rituals and places as "Pellegrinaggio di Montevergine", "Madonna delle Galline", "Madonna dell'Arco", "Cimitero delle fontanelle", maybe some of those names could remember something to your uncles.
A sample for all: I once went to the pilgrimage of Montevergine, I saw so many men dressed as women who worshiped the Virgin Mary, their wives were not far away to watch them. When I asked them why they were doing so, they could not answer, they said only that their fathers and grandfathers did the same rituals.
Well.. as reported by Virgil, at the Parthenos mountain near Neapolis, today Montevergine (literally "the mountain of the virgin"), there was a temple dedicated to the chthonic worship of Kybele, whose priests dressed as woman. If I had named Cybele at one of those pilgrims would look at me like I was crazy.
This is one of the reasons why I love south Italy: people bring ancient history within themselves, without even knowing it!


P. S. About "horns", apotropaic gesture still today performed by neapolitans (not only to say "cornutus", but also to ward off bad luck and "malocchio", the evil eye), yes I think there is a link to Achelous, as well as the red "cornetto portafortuna".

Regards :)
Nico

Offline crispina

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2013, 09:00:52 am »
Speaking of cross-dressing, this paper by Mereille M. Lee, Ph.D., entitled "Acheloos Peplophorus:  A Lost Statuette of a River God in Feminine Dress" might be of interest:

http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/25067990.pdf

Taras

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2013, 11:16:33 am »
Quote from: crispina on December 22, 2013, 09:00:52 am
Speaking of cross-dressing, this paper by Mereille M. Lee, Ph.D., entitled "Acheloos Peplophorus:  A Lost Statuette of a River God in Feminine Dress" might be of interest:

http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/25067990.pdf


I didn't know that statuette.
Thanks for sharing the article Crispina, really appreciated.
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Offline Enodia

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2013, 01:28:30 pm »
[A sample for all: I once went to the pilgrimage of Montevergine, I saw so many men dressed as women who worshiped the Virgin Mary, their wives were not far away to watch them. When I asked them why they were doing so, they could not answer, they said only that their fathers and grandfathers did the same rituals.
Well.. as reported by Virgil, at the Parthenos mountain near Neapolis, today Montevergine (literally "the mountain of the virgin"), there was a temple dedicated to the chthonic worship of Kybele, whose priests dressed as woman. If I had named Cybele at one of those pilgrims would look at me like I was crazy.
This is one of the reasons why I love south Italy: people bring ancient history within themselves, without even knowing it!


in fact the traditional priests of Kybele were all eunuchs, and as such were known as Gallae (or Galli).
this practice carried over to the worship of Hekate in some regions (the Korybantic Rites, for instance), which becomes relevant to this discussion when we consider Book 6 of The Aeneid.
so i wonder, would these men still participate in this ritual if they were aware the entire 'long lost' story?

~ Peter

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2013, 03:09:01 pm »
In considering religious beliefs and identifications of deities, perhaps it is not productive to think very much in either/or categories.  People are perfectly capable in this area of believing several contradictory things at once, so a man headed bull may be one thing and also another at the same time.  The Egyptians had multiple different and apparently contradictory creation myths, and seem to have had no trouble believing all at once.  The Greeks were more concerned with logical consistency, perhaps, than the ancient Near East, but I do not think that any humans are really logical when it comes to supernatural beliefs.  Consider modern western graveyards.  I do not know of any Christian group that maintains the spirits of the departed hang around graveyards, so why do we leave flowers at graves?  Whom do we suppose is going to enjoy them?  Is it possible that if we asked a number of ancients who the man headed bull way, we might get a number of different answers?  I will not even start on who the boy on the dolphin!  He gets so many different names!

Taras

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2013, 03:30:34 pm »
[A sample for all: I once went to the pilgrimage of Montevergine, I saw so many men dressed as women who worshiped the Virgin Mary, their wives were not far away to watch them. When I asked them why they were doing so, they could not answer, they said only that their fathers and grandfathers did the same rituals.
Well.. as reported by Virgil, at the Parthenos mountain near Neapolis, today Montevergine (literally "the mountain of the virgin"), there was a temple dedicated to the chthonic worship of Kybele, whose priests dressed as woman. If I had named Cybele at one of those pilgrims would look at me like I was crazy.
This is one of the reasons why I love south Italy: people bring ancient history within themselves, without even knowing it!


in fact the traditional priests of Kybele were all eunuchs, and as such were known as Gallae (or Galli).
this practice carried over to the worship of Hekate in some regions (the Korybantic Rites, for instance), which becomes relevant to this discussion when we consider Book 6 of The Aeneid.
so i wonder, would these men still participate in this ritual if they were aware the entire 'long lost' story?

~ Peter

Peter, I congratulate you on your knowledge!
I deliberately left out this part of the question not to lengthen too much my post. This argument was the topic of my postgraduate thesis, focused on current psychosocial aspects of gender issues in south Italy in relation to ancient cultural layers.
The icon of Virgin Mary at Montevergine was not only worshiped by heterosexual peasants who cross-dressed up only for the pilgrimage.... the icon is also known as Our Lady protector of femminielli
Here a pic of transgender people during the rite (source La Repubblica):
http://napoli.repubblica.it/images/2013/02/03/133406982-f04fa57c-61b3-4cbd-9c41-8f841467591c.jpg
Historically, when there were no transsexuals because there were no surgical techniques to change sex, the Madonna of Montevergine was warshipped by so-called "femminielli", effeminate cross-dresser people typical of ancient southern Italy culture.

Apologies for the O.T.

bye
Nico

Taras

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2013, 03:43:52 pm »
In considering religious beliefs and identifications of deities, perhaps it is not productive to think very much in either/or categories.  People are perfectly capable in this area of believing several contradictory things at once, so a man headed bull may be one thing and also another at the same time.  The Egyptians had multiple different and apparently contradictory creation myths, and seem to have had no trouble believing all at once.  The Greeks were more concerned with logical consistency, perhaps, than the ancient Near East, but I do not think that any humans are really logical when it comes to supernatural beliefs.  Consider modern western graveyards.  I do not know of any Christian group that maintains the spirits of the departed hang around graveyards, so why do we leave flowers at graves?  Whom do we suppose is going to enjoy them?  Is it possible that if we asked a number of ancients who the man headed bull way, we might get a number of different answers?  I will not even start on who the boy on the dolphin!  He gets so many different names!

I agree with you, in fact this is the methodological basis from which I can state that all the representations of the MFB in Magna Graecia and Sicily refer to Achelous too, not only to local rivers.
About Neapolis I would say that the Achelous identity of the MFB is stronger, and less linked to the symbol of a river, for the reasons I gave above. But I think that also in Sicily, the MFB depicted on so many coins, is at the same time the local river and Achelous.

P.S. About the issue "boy on dolphin", (or I should better say, as you rightly mentioned, "boys on dolphin") I strongly recommend this work: https://www.academia.edu/5356146/Le_iconografie_monetali_in_Messapia_e_il_mistero_Taras_


Bye :)
Nico

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2013, 04:24:43 pm »
although i don't really think that the boy on the dolphin is all that mysterious i do agree with djmacdo for the most part.
i have often said that the Greeks were able to think in multiple boxes, whereas i believe the Romans, like we moderns, were much more cubbyholed.

there is a wonderful book by J.C.B. Petropoulos called 'Heat and Lust' (highly recommended, btw) which looks in depth at the harvest practices of modern Mediterranean farmers which are based upon the demotic songs and rituals of the ancients. the original meaning of these rites may be lost to these peasant farmers, but the practices still continue nearly unchanged.
the meanings may be gone but farmers still know enough to listen to the cicada!

~ Peter

Offline crispina

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2013, 06:06:49 pm »
Sorry to make this go off-topic (please don't hate me, Meepzorp!), but since Peter has invoked Book VI, I have to confess that I would love to hear people's thoughts on Kaineus/Kainis, if you think that it fits into the discussion...

Thanks for letting a Roman collector hang out with y'all!   :)

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2013, 09:16:57 pm »
This may be too much off topic, but it at least relevant to continuing practices.  When I was a grad student many years ago, I met an elderly scholar who had been in Albania between WWI and WWII.  He got stranded in a little Christian village by a flooded river just before Easter and was amazed to watch the villages trudge up to the remnant of an ancient temple and sacrifice a bull there on Easter, followed by cooking and eating the bull.  He asked about the custom and was assured that it honored a local saint of great power who threw lightening bolts to destroy God's enemies.  He was also assured that on the other side of the river where there was a Muslim village that the inhabitants were very silly and superstitious people, thinking the lightening thrower was a Muslim saint.

Offline JBF

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2013, 11:53:22 pm »
Crispina,
My favorite crossdresser is Bugs Bunny
(which is in imitation of Briar Rabbit in the American South,
which is in imitation of African legends).

Isn't the story of Caenus/Caenis, the one where, I think, Poseidon promised the girl anything she wanted, and she wanted to be an invulnerable man?  I think that joke is on Poseidon.

There is also the story about Heracles and the Queen Omphale, where Heracles was placed in service to Queen Omphale, she made him dress up in her clothes, and she dressed up in his clothes.  There are some Mytilene EL with Omphale wearing Heracles' lionskin.  BTW, I believe they did more than just dress up in each others clothes.  I seem to remember that she got a son out of the deal.

Someone who is interesting on these little stories is Robert Graves Greek Myths.  I am _not_ saying he is right, he is a poet and a writer of historical fiction (I, Claudius, King Jesus) and so he has an interesting angle from which he approaches antiquity and Greek Myths.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2013, 12:44:08 am »
Hi Taras,

You are right. I mistakenly thought that Cumae was destroyed in antiquity. It wasn't. I just re-read those pages in Rutter. In 421 BC, the Campani took over Cumae. And the Cumaeans fled to Neapolis and settled there.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2013, 01:19:53 am »
Hi Taras,

I looked up Montevergine online. It is in the town of Avellino. That's interesting. I had an uncle (my mother's sister's husband) and an aunt (my mother's brother's wife) whose families came from Avellino. In the "old neighborhood" where my mother grew up, there was a 2-3 block area where everyone who lived there was a second generation American whose parents came from one of 3 towns in the Naples area: Maddaloni, Avellino, or Caserta. Unfortunately, about 80% of my uncles and aunts are now dead. My mother came from a big family. She was one of 7 children. My maternal grandparents had 13 grandchildren. I have 11 first cousins on my mother's side of the family. And there are my sister and myself.

You are right. None of my elder Neapolitan relatives knew the origins of their rituals ("the horns", the "evil eye", etc.). They just passed them on from generation to generation, for centuries, without knowing how these rituals started. They are totally oblivious to the Greek and/or Roman origins of these rituals.

There is a woman who lives across the street from me who is a few years older than me (I'm 46). Her paternal grandparents came from Maddaloni, and her maternal grandparents came from Caserta. Her father grew up right down the street from my mother in the "old neighborhood". About 13 years ago, I attempted to befriend and/or date her. But she kept rejecting me. I asked her for her phone number 4 times, but she wouldn't give it to me. She kept getting more and more annoyed every time I asked her. Her father (who always liked me) was so happy that I was expressing an interest in her. He was practically begging me to come there and talk to her. He once said to me, "I don't know what I am going to do with her." She is now about 50 years old and still single (never married). And she still lives across the street from me with her mother and father. She is actually a very distant cousin of mine (something like a 7th or 9th cousin). So, where did all of that rejection get her?

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2013, 01:39:33 am »
Hi Taras,

Thanks for pointing out all of those rituals and towns to me. I was not aware of any of them.

I never knew that effeminate/cross-dressing males participated in Christian religious ceremonies in the Naples area, and that it has been going on for centuries. That is strange. I guess it is another one of those weird rituals that can be traced all the way back to the Greeks and Romans. I know that the Romans thought of the entire Naples area as sort of a "playground". Wealthy Romans would often vacation there.

Meepzorp

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2013, 07:03:13 am »
This may be too much off topic, but it at least relevant to continuing practices.  When I was a grad student many years ago, I met an elderly scholar who had been in Albania between WWI and WWII.  He got stranded in a little Christian village by a flooded river just before Easter and was amazed to watch the villages trudge up to the remnant of an ancient temple and sacrifice a bull there on Easter, followed by cooking and eating the bull.  He asked about the custom and was assured that it honored a local saint of great power who threw lightening bolts to destroy God's enemies.  He was also assured that on the other side of the river where there was a Muslim village that the inhabitants were very silly and superstitious people, thinking the lightening thrower was a Muslim saint.

That's an amazing story. One wonders whether it is apocryphal, was it something your elderly scholar actually saw, or was recounted to him. If really true, the anthropologists would have a field day (of course they could also do some surveys in the housing projects around where I live, I think there's more than enough primitive cultural behaviour to be seen in the midst of our large metropoleis, tribal boundaries, codes, body marks, rituals, non-monetary exchange systems, sacrificial punishments etc).

Offline crispina

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2013, 10:22:22 am »
This can in no way hold a candle to stories of lightning and sacrificial bulls, but when I lived in New Orleans, it was not uncommon to see people scrubbing their front steps and the thresholds of their front doors with salt, which was regarded as an efficacious way of warding off evil and deflecting curses.  However, now I am wondering if it might not be a sort of unconscious, residual holdover of offering salt to Janus, ancient protector and guardian of doorways, gates and boundaries...

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2013, 03:24:42 pm »
Andrew,

I heard the story about a half century ago.  I seem to remember someone telling me that it had been written and published, giving specific details.  I shall see if I can find it.

Mac

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Re: Neapolis: Achelous vs. Sebethos
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2013, 09:22:53 am »
Back from Florida so I have a little time to post while the baby sleeps!  It's quite the shock going from 80 degrees to 20 degrees in just a few hours!

Here are some of the arguments put forth for the identity of the man-faced bull, which might be useful for the discussion.  These are excerpts from the draft of a chapter I'm working on with Nico (Taras), but I haven't included the many footnotes:

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The Minotaur:

We learn from Eckhel that the very first scholars to deal with the problem of the man-faced bull’s identity, namely, Gorius, Spanheim, and Beger, chose the Minotaur.  Their identification is based on the error of not recognizing the difference “between a man-headed bull and a man with the head of a bull”, or, in the case of Spanheim and Beger, as Eckhel also notes, choosing not to go against tradition, despite the contrary evidence.  In any event, in no case is the Minotaur ever described as having the body of a bull with the head of a man, and despite how tempting it might be to assume it is just an artist’s variation on the same theme, the two are clearly different.  There is a gem published by Gorius that shows the man-faced bull within a labyrinth, but its authenticity is questionable (I checked, and it's actually a centaur within a labyrinth, not a man-faced bull as described by Eckhel). It is interesting to note, however, that upon showing the image of a man-headed bull to people totally unfamiliar with the iconography, they often call it “the Minotaur”.  Try it out with someone and let me know if your results are the same as mine!

The Agricultural Allegory:

The notion of the man-faced bull as an agricultural allegory is straightforward: the bull in ancient times was often a symbol for agricultural production and so naturally the man-faced bull represents this.  Eckhel cites Carrera, Pighius, Hardouin, Wachterus, and la Chau and le Blond as holding this view. Ultimately, the view that the man-faced bull is an agricultural allegory is unsatisfying, because an agricultural connotation is common for most of the other identities of the man-faced bull, with the exception of perhaps the Minotaur.  As an example, Ignarra’s argument that the man-faced bull is Achelous begins with a preliminary argument that it is an agricultural allegory (I think, Nico is working his way through the Latin!).

Neptune:

Eckhel cites only Mazochius as espousing this view and claims that no other scholars were convinced of it.  I haven't read his argument yet, but it has something to do with the cult of Poseidon Taureos, presumably.

Jupiter:

Two gems, one in the Florence cabinet and the other published by Gravellius, and both reproduced on plates included in Eckhel’s Doctrina, appear to show Jupiter in the guise of a man-faced bull as he carries off Europa.  The plates were posted on another thread:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=92708.0

Dionysos Hebon:

Eckhel, following Matthaeus Aegyptius, argues that the man-faced bull of Italy and Sicily is probably Dionysos Hebon, although the primary purpose of his argument, as he inform us, is to demonstrate that it is definitely not a river god, Achelous or the local variety.  His argument in favor of it being Dionysus Hebon is based on the following: (1) Dionysus Hebon was often depicted as a bull, (2) a coin of Gela seems to portray Dionysus approaching a woman who offers him a wreath, as Plutarch’s account illustrated, (3) Jupiter is represented as a bull with a man’s face on two gems (see citation above) so Dionysus could be displayed this way too, in order to distinguish him from a regular bull, (4) he interprets a coin of Silenos in the following way: it shows on the obverse Proserpine, who was a daughter of Jupiter and also impregnated her in the form of a serpent, also shown on the obverse, and the reverse depicts their child, the man-faced bull, Dionysus, (5) Dionysus was highly honored in Campania because of the wine produced, (6) Dionysus invented the diadem, and that is why he is frequently seen in the guise of a man-faced bull with a Victory crowning him with a diadem, and finally, (7) this theory is compatible with the “agricultural allegory” identification because Dionysus was believed to be the first to submit bulls to the yoke, which is why he is depicted with horns.

Representation of Harmony between Ceres and Dionysus:

Eckhel mentions this only in passing, but explains as follows: Dionysus and Ceres are the two principle deities of agriculture, and the horned head might represent Dionysus while the bull represents Ceres, since the bull was her favorite animal.

Dionysos Zagreus:

It was Gardner who argued that the man-faced bull of Neapolis is Dionysos Zagreus. Rutter quotes the appropriate lines, “ ‘we have no sufficient proof that streams were objects of special worship in Campania,’ and, second, ‘…we have…ample proof that the cultus of Dionysus, especially Dionysus Zagreus, was there quite at home, and that the god was frequently worshiped in the form of a horned youth or a human-headed bull.”  Rutter argues against this, stating that there is at least one example of a river being worshiped in Campania and placed on a coin (the Sebethos), and that the monuments recording the worship of Dionysus Zagreus in Campana are too late, coming from Hellenistic and Roman times.  However, just because the monuments recording the worship of Dionysus Zagreus appear at a later date does not mean that he was not worshiped there earlier, and the theory of Dionysus Zagreus as the true identity of the man-faced bull deserves further consideration.

Local River Gods:


The Learned Prince of Turris Mucia

First, we paraphrase the Prince’s argument as summarized by Eckhel: (1) The ancients accorded divine honors to rivers, (2) Ancient rivers were depicted as bulls, (3) Rivers were also depicted as a human face with horns (here he is referring to later coinages that display the head and neck of a man, but with tiny horns of a bull) and (4) The Akarnanians and Ambracians certainly used a man-headed bull to depict their rivers, so it follows that other cities depicted their river god this way too.

The Man-Faced Bull of Gela

Second, we examine the argument that the man-faced bull of Gela represents the local river god Gelas. At the outset, it should be noted that there is literary evidence that the river god of the Gelaians was named Gelas, as we learn from Timaios of Tauromenion, when he discusses the Phalaris Bull in the first Pythian Ode.  However, some, including Eckhel, have still doubted this attribution.  Carina Weiss points out that the inscription ΓΕΛΑΣ serves to acknowledge precisely that it is a local god and not Achelous, since the Gelaian tetradrachms are the earliest coins to show the man-faced bull in the West.  But the most convincing argument might come from an overview of the inscriptions, again provided by Weiss.  As she explains, the legend ΓΕΛΑΣ must be linked to the man-faced bull, because the Jenkins Group VII tetradrachms, which show a youthful horned river god, do not have the inscription ΓΕΛΑΣ, but instead on the obverse ΓΕΛΩΙΩΝ.  Yet in the same series, when the man-faced bull reappears on the reverse, the inscription ΓΕΛΑΣ also returns.  In addition, Jenkins notes that the later bronze units (420-405 BC) which have a horned human river god on the obverse and a regular bull on the reverse most likely indicate the dual nature of the river god.  Weiss also makes note of the fact that the man-faced bull reappears when Gela re-founded itself after the Carthaginian invasion c. 405-339 BC. Ultimately, Weiss believes that the man-faced bull of Gelas borrowed its iconography from Achelous, but later changed to a depiction of the river god as a horned youth.

The Man-Faced Bull of Agyrion

Third, we examine Carina Weiss’ argument that the man-faced bull depicted on the bronze coins of Agyrion represents the local river god Palagkaios.  It is worth noting that Eckhel mentions in the Doctrina that, “If I ever see the man-headed bull type labeled not with these ambiguous names [i.e. Gelas]…but with a name such as Amenanos…I will become an immediate convert to the theory of the learned Prince.”  Palagkaios of Agyrion might be such a name.  Weiss argues first that the nominative Palankaios does not correspond to the later forms of Agyrion magistrate legends, but her evidence is from after 241 BC, when Sicily was a Roman province.  Secondly, Weiss argues that it is probably not an artist’s signature, since such signatures are usually tiny abbreviations, not large banners directly over the illustration.  She also questions why an artist would sign a substandard bronze die in such away, to which I would agree save the idea that the dies were “substandard”!  Finally, she cites a coin from the period 339-300 BC in which a male head in laurel wreath carries the inscription XEUS ELEYQERIOS (EDIT: the Greek didn't paste properly, I'll fix this later) , a clear label of the illustration.  She then concludes that  PALAGKAIOS must also refer to the illustration, and therefore name the man-faced bull.  

The Man-Faced Bull of Campania

Finally, we examine Rabun Taylor’s argument that the Neaopolitan man-faced bull represents Sebethos, and as such, he argues that the man-faced bull is a symbol of synoecism, or the cohabitation of two or more different peoples in one geographic area, which in the case of Neapolis would be Neapolis and Parthenopē.  Taylor’s argument for identifying the man-faced bull as Sebethos rests on the fact that the Sebethos river was probably the river that divided ancient Neapolis from Parthenopē, and the river god as man-faced bull is therefore the appropriate synoecistic image.  In addition, he notes a coin minted c. 400-380 BC, in which a youthful horned river god on the obverse of a coin is surrounded by the inscription Sepeithos, naming the horned man as the river god outright.  Taylor argues, just as the Geloians adopted Achelous’ iconography to represent their river as a man-faced bull, and later that river god appeared as a youthful horned male, so too did the Neapolitans adopt the man-faced bull iconography to represent their local river, and later replaced it with the youthful, horned river god.  Taylor also cites an inscription from the island of Kōs that claims the Neapolitans “were using as an emblem for their civic identity ‘a figure of a male animal’”.  However, this inscription dates to 242 BC, and as we will see below, there are convincing arguments that support the notion that the Campanian man-faced bull is not a local river god.


Achelous:

While it is not disputed that the man-faced bull of Akarniania and the surrounding area is Achelous, others have extended this theory to apply beyond Akarnania.  Ignarra was the first to do this, arguing that all depictions of the man-faced bull are Achelous, since Achelous represents rivers and water in the general sense and we can, as Eckhel recounts, refer to them as “Acheloici”.  Unfortunately, Eckhel does not give this theory the credit it deserves, and instead dismisses it as a problem of overextending an example of an iconography and applying to all examples of an iconography.  Eckhel’s dismissal, however, does not take into account that some examples of such iconography might in fact be Achelous without the implication that all examples of the man-faced bull are definitely Achelous.  For example, it could be a depiction of Achelous on the coins of Akarnania and Campania (as Rutter will argue, see below), but not on the coins of Tauromenion and Agyrion, etc.

Rutter’s argument that the man-faced bull of Neapolis (and by extension, all of Campania) is Achelous is the most convincing and the most widely held view today.  It should be mentioned that Rutter agrees with most scholars that the man-faced bull on south Italian and Sicilian coinage represents local river gods.  However, in the case of Neapolis he questions whether we see the Sebethos or Achelous.  His argument that it is probably Achelous is as follows: (1) there are iconographic parallels that display a very similar iconography and are certainly Achelous, (2) there is definitive proof of a cult of Achelous that was established in south Italy by the time Neapolis was founded, and (3) the obverse most likely shows Parthenope, Achelous’ daughter, whose tomb is allegedly in Neapolis and who had games held in her honor, hence the reverse shows her father and, on some issues, Victory crowns him.

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Personally, I'm still undecided.  I'm leaning towards Achelous for Neapolis, but I somewhat disagree with my good friend Nico that all man-faced bulls are Achelous, mostly because of the examples from Gela and Agyrion.  I won't venture a guess on the identity of the man-faced bull in the various locations in which he appears until we have finished our research for the chapter on the man-faced bull's origins (the first man-faced bull in ancient art is from Old Europe, c. 5th Millenium (!) BC).

I think David is on to something in suggesting the MFB could mean different things to different people, and perhaps this mystery is as old as the man-faced bull himself!

 

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