Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Ancient currency relative value to today?  (Read 10727 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

superflex

  • Guest
Ancient currency relative value to today?
« on: June 20, 2012, 04:53:49 am »
Hi,

I hope i am posting in the right section, i have a general question that i cant seem to find an answer to. What were silver or gold coins worth back in ancient times ? since that is incredibly broad lets narrow it to silver and the periods 450-150 BC Greece and say 150-250 BC Rome. from what i have read weight of the coin was one measurement of the coins value but was a 5g silver coin in those periods worth $50 US today in relative terms? Adjusting for inflation further complicates things, which is not my aim here.

I am not talking about the market prices today instead I just want to know how certain sources i have read saw farmers reap a whole years crop for one silver coin ?

 

TRPOT

  • Guest
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 06:29:10 am »
That's a common question which is often asked and difficult to give a simple answer to, but Doug Smith tackles it pretty well on his website:

http://dougsmith.ancients.info/worth.html

Offline Lucas H

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
    • My Gallery
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 07:39:31 am »

Quote
I hope i am posting in the right section

This is an excellent place to post such a question.

Quote
Doug Smith tackles it pretty well on his website:http://dougsmith.ancients.info/worth.html

Doug Smith does do a good job of addressing the topic.  I don't know that it matters for this topic, but some time back, Mr. Smith quit updating the site above, and migrated to hosting here at the Forum.  The relevant topic on his current website is here:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/worth.html

superflex

  • Guest
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 07:58:02 am »
Thank you both, very interesting read. It appears it isn't as simple as i thought and the period/inflation/living standards/wages all seem to contribute to value. I do have another question though.

Ignoring the issues of 'ancient market value' of the currency, my question is were there any issues trading foreign money in to Rome for example. If i walked up to a bakers stall and asked for a months supply of bread, i  toss him a silver owl from Athens.
Will the value of the coin count as silver weight ? or will it be illegal to use such a tender in Rome.

 I guess this extends to a broader question as to the coins value 'market value of the time' and the 'actual' value of its make up of silver for example. Considering Rome was constantly lowering the silver purity in the coins. 

TRPOT

  • Guest
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 10:27:56 am »
I don't have an official answer for you, as I'm no expert on Roman economics, but I don't think I'd be going too far out on a limb to say that as a center of trade, Rome had many bankers who would exchange currency... and the merchants would probably accept any good coinage that was worth their while to accept (whether the law forbade it or not). Provincial bronzes were probably about as welcome in the Roman marketplace as a Mexican Peso would be at a Burger King in Nebraska, but good silver would probably be welcome anywhere.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 03:52:30 pm »
a comment on this topic that I have made before: when comparing buying power against local wages, it is best not to bother trying to make analogies with jobs and wage-rates in the richest countries in the western world in the 21st century. It's just a bridge too far, especially given the distortions in rich-world economies that result from mechanisation of agriculture and food processing that make food relatively cheap for us today, whilst craft-goods are relatively expensive for us today. When you start making such comparisons you come to absurd values for ancient coins that really cannot be related to today.

I suggest, instead, to compare to compare to two or three modern world countries that bear some parallels to the ancient world - massive, rich countries certainly, massively complicated bureaucracies and distances to be travelled, yet where the 'working man' lives at a subsistence level, perhaps with minimal access to electricity or running water, with unmechanised agriculture and limited food processing, but still in a physical environment that can be rather pleasant, with lots of fresh herbs and market-place vegetables and good quality local craft goods and excellent personal services (hairdressing and such like). With this in mind, I suggest comparing the ancient world to today:
- Nigeria
- India
- Indonesia

These would be the rich world equivalents to ancient Rome - massively wealthy, populous and powerful nations in their own rights, with modern jet fighters, large armies, substantial trade, manufacturing and exports, but still in an environment where villages may have no running water or electricity, yet people may wear elaborately produced hand-made clothes, carved wooden furniture, eat well and healthy with a diet that includes organic vegetables and herbs, have happy, healthy children, who go to school, have space to play and a roof over their heads.

The sort of income that you need to lead such a life in such countries is about $5 a day, or, if you assume 1 wage earner for a family of 4, about $1/person/day which is in fact the internationally recognised poverty-line. With $10/day ($3650 p.a. for a family), you get all this, a television, electric light and running water, and some schoolbooks, for a family of four, and the ability to save for a beat-up old car (or an ancient donkey and cart).

This is about the level that should be equated with the pay of a Roman legionary, for this is the sort of middle class life he would probably have aspired to, and been able to afford. He would have considered himself happy and wealthy to have been earning $10/day.

So, since a Roman legionary was paid 225 denarii / year, from the time of Marius (increased to 300/year under Domitian), plus a substantial amount bonuses and booty, I tend to equate a denarius to about $10. If you do a reverse calculation as to how much wine and grain $10 a day would buy you come to about the same figure as in ancient Rome. Bear in mind we are not talking about buying bread from fancy New York bakeries, and Californian Pinot Noir, but rather wine in tetra-pak or 5 litre containers and poor quality grain with weavils. Think Aldi and Costco rather than Waitrose or Whole Foods. Move onto craft works and you, again, find more or less equality between a $10 denarius, the cost of cloth or woodwork in ancient times, and what an Indian might pay for a carved stool or some clothing repairs, some laundry, a hair-cut, or a wash at a communal facility today. It matches up.

I make this case in order to dispel the views that one sometimes hears that "a denarius was the Roman equivalent of a $100 bill". It was never remotely as valuable. At most, a denarius was equivalent, in today's terms, to a $10 or $20 bill, or a 10 pound note.

Of course there were those in ancient times who were truly wealthy. Those truly wealthy who lived in Rome or Campania were the equivalent to the richest of today's dwellers in Hong Kong or Geneva, happily paying $10 for a coffee, and nothing for a bus-fare because they've never taken a bus in their life. Indeed you can compare today's sybarites with Hortensius or Lucullus, but their spending power, and the cost of the luxuries they bought, had as much relevance to the "cost of living" in the ancient world as a Vacheron-Constantin watch does to a Swatch.

Offline ickster

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 07:01:51 pm »
Andrew,

A brilliant post! Succinct and compelling, and educational for us laymen.

Thanks.

superflex

  • Guest
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2012, 02:57:08 am »
Thank you Trpot and Andrew very insightful. This does make for an interesting topic, I have a clearer view of relative values to today thanks to Andrew, however, if anyone has another insight into using foreign currencies in Rome it would be great to hear it. I think TRPOT touches on a good point on this issue that if it was good silver why wouldn't it be excepected? I am sure people especially mercenaries where paid in their local currencies sometimes, if a few soldiers where going through Rome after service and were paid in foreign currency would it be a valid currency(let alone merchants and traders). Would it be accepted then used for silver as it may not of been allowed to be recycled back into the economy. It would be difficult for the economy to function well if there were many currencies or would it ? Would there of been an exchange system based on silver quality and weight?


Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 05:34:09 am »
I think TRPOT touches on a good point on this issue that if it was good silver why wouldn't it be excepected?

True, but there were practical barriers
- Silver coinage in ancient Rome was generally overvalued relative to its silver value. So an Athenian tetradrachm would regarded as a lump of silver, and disappointingly undervalued
- If you go into a shop in Boise, Idaho and proffer a CHF 200 note, would it be accepted? How many dollars would you get for a CHF 200 note in Boise or any other city that did not have a major international airport? You'd have difficulty getting rid of it I think.
- Legionaries were paid in denarii, so they might not have much foreign currency
- I suspect that once you stepped off the ship in Brundisium there were a row of foreign exchange booths on the quayside all offering best rates on drachms of various sources. There wouldn't be much incentive to bring them home.

It would be accepted in Rome, for silver value (less a bit), most likely in a silversmiths shop where they intended to melt it down, but not I think really as foreign exchange.

TRPOT

  • Guest
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 07:04:03 am »
Some merchants might look at it as a chance to low-ball the rube with the owl... grumble something about the inconvenience of having to go exchange it and offer him less than it is worth. I agree it wasn't normal and probably wasn't always welcome or accepted. A lot of merchants might have said "go down to the docks and come back with some real money"









Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 07:04:29 am »
As a general point on these sort of topics, I find many modern books that deal with life in the ancient world to be rather dull. For example "Ancient Rome on Five Denarii a Day: A Guide to Sightseeing, Shopping and Survival in the City of the Caesars" is one of the most uninformative books that I have  seen, and each year a dozen similar books are issued. The problem with such modern "life in ancient times" books is that they written with NO IMAGINATION, and NO EXPERIENCE OF LIFE, by people in nicely furnished apartments in a modern city with no concept of how people survive without flush toilets, and try and equate everything to McDonalds or a visit to an Odeon cinema. So none of the stories strikes home as authentic, as conveying a real scene that the author has seen.

I've spent much of my life working in places such as Paraguay, Nigeria, Oman, Gabon, Cuba, Malaysia and so on. I've visited countless perfectly-comfortable homes that lacked running water, yet contained works of famous literature. I've seen middle-class life being lived with difficulties, but with many small comforts and enjoyments, at dollar-income levels that wouldn't last long in London. I know how street-entertainers and stage plays, communal bathing, elections, political favouritism, social welfare, laundry services, family cooking for those who lack kitchens, and many other facets of ordinary life, are organised in less wealthy areas of the world. Somehow, however, it seems that the writers of drivel such as "Rome on Five Denarii a Day" have really no idea about life in the round, how humanity really lives, and convey their inexperience in their books.

Mary Beard and a few other luminaries are of course exceptions.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 07:19:09 am »
Some merchants might look at it as a chance to low-ball the rube with the owl... grumble something about the inconvenience of having to go exchange it and offer him less than it is worth. I agree it wasn't normal and probably wasn't always welcome or accepted. A lot of merchants might have said "go down to the docks and come back with some real money"

Yes!

TRPOT

  • Guest
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 04:34:07 pm »
now if it was, say, the late 3rd Century they'd probably take that Tetradrachm and run for the hills before the sucker customer changed his mind! haha

superflex

  • Guest
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2012, 12:44:38 am »
Some merchants might look at it as a chance to low-ball the rube with the owl... grumble something about the inconvenience of having to go exchange it and offer him less than it is worth. I agree it wasn't normal and probably wasn't always welcome or accepted. A lot of merchants might have said "go down to the docks and come back with some real money"


Noted. In case i wake up one day in ancient Greece ill make sure to exchange my owls in Athens before i leave for Rome. Funny how things don't change, if you exchange your currency at an overseas airport you usually get ripped off to. You mostly always get a better rate domestically, before your departure (unless you exchange at your local airport where im sure they'll rip you off too!)






TRPOT

  • Guest
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2012, 06:51:34 am »
Some merchants might look at it as a chance to low-ball the rube with the owl... grumble something about the inconvenience of having to go exchange it and offer him less than it is worth. I agree it wasn't normal and probably wasn't always welcome or accepted. A lot of merchants might have said "go down to the docks and come back with some real money"


Noted. In case i wake up one day in ancient Greece ill make sure to exchange my owls in Athens before i leave for Rome. Funny how things don't change, if you exchange your currency at an overseas airport you usually get ripped off to. You mostly always get a better rate domestically, before your departure (unless you exchange at your local airport where im sure they'll rip you off too!)







Oh hell I don't really know... I'm just having fun with it.

Offline mwilson603

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1234
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2012, 11:00:42 am »
Some merchants might look at it as a chance to low-ball the rube with the owl... grumble something about the inconvenience of having to go exchange it and offer him less than it is worth. I agree it wasn't normal and probably wasn't always welcome or accepted. A lot of merchants might have said "go down to the docks and come back with some real money"


Noted. In case i wake up one day in ancient Greece ill make sure to exchange my owls in Athens before i leave for Rome. Funny how things don't change, if you exchange your currency at an overseas airport you usually get ripped off to. You mostly always get a better rate domestically, before your departure (unless you exchange at your local airport where im sure they'll rip you off too!)


Oh hell I don't really know... I'm just having fun with it.

I'm sure that Superflex is right.  Those Roman airports were a complete rip off if you hadn't exchanged your money beforehand! :)
regards
Mark
P.S. Interesting topic BTW, the real one, not my flippant part!

TRPOT

  • Guest
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2012, 11:28:57 am »


I'm sure that Superflex is right.  Those Roman airports were a complete rip off if you hadn't exchanged your money beforehand! :)
regards
Mark
P.S. Interesting topic BTW, the real one, not my flippant part!


Yeah, but the worst part was having to wait neatly 2000 years for your flight.

Offline Dino

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Quaestor
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1521
  • Anyone have change for a hemidrachm?
    • My Gallery
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2012, 11:43:15 am »
Yeah, but the worst part was having to wait neatly 2000 years for your flight.

That's about the same wait time as today in the Rome airport.

superflex

  • Guest
Re: Ancient currency relative value to today?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2012, 05:26:04 pm »
Yeah, but the worst part was having to wait neatly 2000 years for your flight.

That's about the same wait time as today in the Rome airport.

 :laugh:   

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity