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Author Topic: Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion  (Read 7026 times)

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Offline Simon

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Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« on: January 10, 2004, 09:15:58 pm »
This Medal is 80mm and 10mm thick, it is made of what looks like lead. It is still very dirt and I do very much need some cleaning tips ( Cleaning a lead medallion.) and of course still guesiing what it was used for. It was recently found in Syria and  its Byzantine. I got it today.

This obv has  a male ( Christ?) with a baby in his arms overlooking a dead female laying horrizontle and  Nimbus (has  a halo) ( Saint or the Virgin? )  on a bed?  The two are surronded by praying people and the fellow on the left has a long stick on the side of the bed.

No Legend , just design.
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Offline Simon

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2004, 09:21:50 pm »
And the Reverse , just a large interesting designed cross. Again no legend.

I really wonder what the obverse trying to say? Who is the man with the baby? What and when is this scene depicting? Any suggestions or knowledge would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Simon
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Offline vercingetorix

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2004, 05:50:22 am »
First of all about the cleaning method. I had a similar medalion, in size I mean, and the only way to clean it without damaging  is with a new tooth brush. The lead is a very soft metal and can get scratched very quickly; also it has a distinctive patina, an oxid, which I believe you don't want to spoil.So I suggest to clean it with a tooth brush and a lot of patience :)
The medalion is very interesting. The reverse doesn't raise any problems, probably only the style of the cross which can be helpful in dating the medalion. The obverse is certainly a funeral allegory and right now I can't be sure who's "funeral" we are talking about, but it seems to me an imperial scene and not a saint, considering the crowd in the background. If it was found in Syria, is probably made locally- Antiohia or Jerusalem, so it should be from the early byzantine period. I have two questions at this point: are you sure the dead person is a female and also the left fellow is he holding a stick or what seems like a "broom" in the image?
Otherwise, congratulations for the purchase and a more intimate question: was it expensive? :)
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Offline Simon

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2004, 06:23:54 am »
Hi V, Thanks for the cleaning tip. I will be real carefull with the cleaning, I dont think it will be very diifficult to clean, the dirt comes out without to much problems. Can I soak it  in distilled water?

As for the main figure who is dead, it appears to be female because of the head garment , it looks like a maphorium that the Virgin wears in other coins.

The fellow looks like he is holding a torch, ready to start a funeral pyre, but I didn't think that would fit into the Christian beliefs.

I found one image that has similarities it is a wall sculpture in Notre Dame done around 1210 AD . It is called " The  Dormition of the Virgin." but Christ in that scene has no baby and the angels taking her to heaven are distinct and on the medal  I really doubt that I see any angels. So next question is what Byzantine Empresses died durring child birth? I think that is a good way too start.

BTW the scan does not do the medal justice, I will try to do a photo. Thanks again for your help. :)
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline vercingetorix

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2004, 06:47:30 am »
I was thinking about the same thing- which empress died in this context, or not necessarily an empress but someone from the imperial family.
I wouldn't soak it in any liquid at all. If you tries before with lead and nothing happened you might just do it again, but I wouldn't recommend it in this case.
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Offline Simon

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2004, 07:03:11 am »
This time a photo. A little diffrent view.
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Offline vercingetorix

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2004, 07:40:52 am »
Of course a much better picture Simon. The left man is a priest and he is holding a specific religious object used in a funeral ritual. I am afraid I don't know the name in English, but it's a bowl with incensed frankincense and myhrr held with three chains and moved in the air. I hope you understand this non-academic description :)
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2004, 09:00:26 am »
Isn't that a censer? One of those things they wave about the church (you can tell I'm a Protestant) to spread the fumes?
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Offline vercingetorix

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2004, 09:11:54 am »
Yes, exactly. I am orthodox and we have the same tradition. I think "waving" is the best way to describe the action on the medalion.
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Offline Simon

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2004, 03:48:02 pm »
Just a quick update. When cleaning I found that both the man and the baby are nimbus ( Halo's ) that steers us back to "The  Dormition of the Virgin."  I do not know all of the varities of this scene, the only one I have seen has angels and Christ does not have a child in his hands.

I have just begun cleaning the medallion but the results so far are great. I need to start some toothpick work on the obverse and the reverse still has lots of dirt but I am making headway. ;)
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Simon

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2004, 07:07:50 am »
I have just finished the cleaning. Just a toothbrush.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline Simon

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2004, 07:10:06 am »
And the other side. ;D
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Offline vercingetorix

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2004, 08:24:26 am »
Very nice Simon, I am glad the toothbrush was useful. We definately see a lot more detail right now. Did you count the men in the "audience". I wonder if the number is 12, I am not sure from the image. The "baby" is still puzzling me, it just doesn't fit in the scene. It seems like the character waving the censer has a special place in the scene. Also I see a "head" very close to the altar, probably kissing? the Virgins' hands.  Also on  both sides of Christ's head I see too small figures- are they angels or something?
        Of course, first question that comes to my mind is "what is the purpose of making such an item, especially without any inscription, origin marks or else?"
       I wonder if the medallion is not part of a series depicting a certain religious scene and yours is just one of them. Does it look like it has ever been mounted in something or being attached to another object? Is there any sign of that on the rim? The medallion has two sides, so obviously it wasn't "applied" in a church on a table, wall or any other object but maybe on a mobile item.
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Offline Simon

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2004, 06:42:57 pm »
V, lots more to be seen on the medallion. Let me answer a couple of questions, I do not know if the # is 12 but it is very close ( I was thinking about the 12 disciplies as well.) However two of the most intersting characters are both very diffrent , the fellow on the right of the coin ( didnt come out well with the pic.) has his whole body turned away looking off the right of the coin ( Judas?)

The guy to the left of the body is wearing what appears to be distinctly diffrent clothing , more like late Byzantine and appears to have a low cut crown or head garb ( King or Priest.)

Around Christs head seems to be two wooden or box like items one on each side. I have been looking for Angels especially if this is a depiction of "The  Dormition of the Virgin." but have found nothing to even speculate that any of the characters are angels.

The sides of the medal are perfectly smooth, in fact at one time I bet it was polished, maybe  it sat on top of a staff? The mobile item you thought of?

What if it is a relic from a non traditional Christian religon? I have read of many diffrent sects of Christianity that exsisted in that area of the world , they used diffrent philosphys and diffrent books in the bible. I hate to even mention this because of the Di Vinci Code popularity but  maybe we are looking at someone other than the Virgin Mary, A story that we are not familar with.  I'm really reaching here  but Why would Christ be carrying a child? It seems weird for him to be carrying a symbolic version of himself. No offense to anyone,  just a big speclative question and trying to find an answer.
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2004, 06:51:16 pm »
The man and the baby both have definite haloes, the woman's look as though it could be part of whatever it is she's lying on. The things either side of the man's head look like angels. The idea of Jesus holding a holy baby doesn't ring any bells from any of the known heresies. Could be St. Joseph? But the baby is usually held by his mother.
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Offline Simon

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2004, 06:56:06 pm »
Robert I see the angels in the photo as well but in person I cannot see them. How about the other side, have you seen a cross like that before? Is it unusual or common?
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2004, 08:13:21 pm »
I haven't seen a cross exactly like that, but I think one of the crusader Orders (Hospitallers?) used something vaguely similar.
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Offline Simon

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2004, 09:00:24 am »
It is 12, no doubt.  
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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2004, 09:52:54 am »
Mystery Solved, it is the The Assumption (Dormition) of the Virgin. I finally found a pic of this with Christ holding the child.

The full story behind it is interesting, it all seems to start with Emperor Marcian and his wife Pulcheria  who wanted to possess the body of Mary, when the tomb was opened it was found to be empty.

Here is the  full story.

http://www.rollins.edu/Foreign_Lang/Russian/assumpt.html

As for Christ holding the Baby I found one depiction with the same thing.

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Offline vercingetorix

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2004, 06:03:04 pm »
Well, seems like we solved one part of the mistery. We have a "dormition" but we still don't know the purpose of making a medallion and more important its practical use, because I suspect it must have been one. Considering it to be close to Marcian's reign and as it was found in Syria we might think it's from th VIth century and possibly used within a religious framework.
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Offline wegm

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2004, 10:55:00 am »
The story of the Dormition goes back to the apocrayphal stories surrounding James, the brother of Jesus and leader of the Jewish community in Jerusalem after the crucifixion. The festival of the Dormitian does date from around the time of Pulcheria - she was one of the empresses who contributed to the creation of the distinctive cult of Mary. Celbrated on 15th August, it was one of the 12 major celebrations of the church and was preceded by a Lenten preparation period, (nine days, I think).  

As an artistic motif, the Dormition was a late bloomer. The earlist surviving examples are 10th century ivories from Constantinople, (though the site listed above says earlier, the Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium goes with 10th century) . It's not really until the beginning of the Comnenian era (late 11th c) that its usage becomes widespread. Seals of this period use the motif (http://www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/PBE/seals/L1/Iconography/Koimesis%20of%20Theotokos.htm , though unfortunately no illustrations,) and depictions of the Dormition became a standard in church decoration throughout the empire, and its cultural satellites like Serbia. To judge from the developed composition, raised relief and generally bold style, and from comparing this with other late Byzantine decorative metalwork,  I'd venture a guess that this piece belongs to the 13th or 14th century.

Offline vercingetorix

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Re:Large Byzantine Unknown Lead Medallion
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2004, 04:51:07 pm »
Your argument is correct wegm, but Syria seems the wrong place for a XIV century medallion, don't you think?
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