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Author Topic: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates  (Read 209 times)

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Offline STEVEN M1

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Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« on: November 25, 2021, 12:26:25 am »
I'm finally digitizing my copy of Hartwig (1910). If anyone needs the Plates I've dropped them off at my website; feel free to download them.

There are 28 of them, named

https://www.rnumis.com/downloads/SANTA_1910_03_07_T0600_01.jpg
https://www.rnumis.com/downloads/SANTA_1910_03_07_T0600_02.jpg
:
etc
:
https://www.rnumis.com/downloads/SANTA_1910_03_07_T0600_28.jpg

I'm not scanning the text as the catalog is also at Hathitrust https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$c148974. Their plates are poor, however.

Steve
Steve Moulding
New York

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2021, 06:11:44 am »
Hi SM,

Thanks for posting this.

Someone had some very nice Campania coins over 100 years ago.

Meepzorp

Offline STEVEN M1

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2021, 11:37:30 am »
You're very welcome :) I wonder where those coins are now?!

The reason I pulled Hartwig off the shelf was a Taras didrachm with elephant that I came across in the 1924 Naville Bement Sale, lot 100 (see image).  I think the Vlasto number is 732.
The Bement lot is listed as having weight 6.29g and ex Hartwig, Rome 1912. Well, Hartwig was 1910, and as a Hartwig lot number wasn't mentioned I needed to check. The online HathiTrust plate was far too poor to use.

What I found in my copy of Hartwig was lot 121 (see image) It looks very similar and may well be the same coin but I'm not 100% sure. The catalogued sizes match. However, the Hartwig catalog lists the weight as 7.25g...clearly very different, so if it is the same coin, somebody is wrong. It sold for a respectable 675 Francs in 1910, more than 10x the price of other nearby Taras lots.
So, I'm still researching....maybe I'll find it in a later sale, or somebody here owns it!

I love the didrachm with elephant, by the way. I don't know how rare they are, or why an elephant

Steve
Steve Moulding
New York

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2021, 05:23:42 pm »
Hi SM,

I also wonder where those coins are now. It is difficult to imagine that someone could assemble a collection of such beautiful coins 100-150 years ago. Vlasto and Cote (Ratto-Cote) were able to assemble comprehensive and almost unimaginable collections of Taras coins during that time period. Obviously, the material was available back then, but it is difficult to image how because metal detectors weren't in widespread use, and excavations of ancient archaeological sites were a fraction of what they are today. You would think that the material wouldn't be available during that time period, but it was.

I have an example of the Taras didrachm (with the elephant symbol) that you mentioned. Mine is Vlasto 736. Obviously, it is not the same coin. My example has cracks and/or other flan defects on the reverse, near the dolphin's tail. The dealer that sold my example to me listed one previous dealer.

Here is my example (second coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/gi_calb_taras_pt02.htm

I also have a Neapolis didrachm with an elephant symbol (last coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/gi_camp_neap_ar04.htm

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2021, 05:34:35 pm »
Hi SM,

As you may know (if you have ever looked at my website), I love Magna Graecia coins, especially Campania coins. In that Hartwig sale, in addition to Taras coins, there are some beautiful Campania coins (Hyria. Neapolis, etc.) in the first plate. I have many of those coins, but most of those are in much better condition than mine.

In particular, lot #6 (Hyria) is exceptionally nice. I have an example of that coin, but mine is much lower grade.

Here is my example (fifth coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/gi_camp_hyria_irnthi.htm

Meepzorp

Offline Kevin D

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2021, 05:43:25 pm »
Excellent high quality scans. Much appreciated, Steve. If you decide to upload your Sternberg catalogs, please let us know.

I have no doubt that the Hartwig and Bement Lots are the same coin. I think probably just a typo error on the weight (7 for 6). It looks like Vlasto 736-738 (without DI below dolphin).

Offline STEVEN M1

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2021, 10:15:13 pm »
Thank you Kevin - glad you liked them!

I do tend to scan at higher resolutions, usually 600-1200 dpi plates and 300dpi for text. As result a whole scanned catalog can be very fat. I'm looking at setting up a cdn-like solution (like Amazon cloudfront) that would ease any strain on my rnumis storage and bandwidth. The Sternberg PDFs run from 50MB to 350MB each, so that adds up (I have 19 digitized and still have a few more to do). What I currently do is share digitized catalogs with other interested folks on request using WeTransfer. They just check what scans I have using my rnumis auction-house pages (eg  https://www.rnumis.com/house_auctions.php?house=STERN) and tell me what they need. That seems to work well and I'm happy to do that for now but I'm still thinking about what's the best long term solution.

Regarding the elephant...unfortunately I don't have a Vlasto in front of me so was just going off http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/calabria/taras/i.html. From the auctions they cite (Peus and Sincona), 732 is the elephant without DI and 735 for elephant+DI (and horse+rider+standing figure). Different from the 736-738 you suggested. Meepzorp's elephant is also listed as Vlasto 736. Wildwinds 736 is completely different. I need to see Vlasto as it's not clear to me.

I agree Hartwig 121 and Bement 100 are almost certainly the same coin. Probably, what look like real differences are really just a result of different casting processes/quality at Santamaria and Naville. Also a 6.25g weight for Hartwig would make much more sense, but even that's 0.04g off from Naville...more than I usually see so I wonder if the whole Hartwig 7.29g is just wrong. I guess it doesn't matter so much if it really is the same coin, as seem likely.

Thanks again

Steve
 
Steve Moulding
New York

Offline STEVEN M1

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2021, 10:23:11 pm »
Hi Meepzorp, I have indeed looked at your website! You have some amazing coins and I love the work you put into presenting them; the accompanying detailed notes and holder images are super useful. The Taras elephant is really nice. The Neapolis elephant too. I'm going to have to find one. Or both!

Hartwig 6 (Hyria) I have to think there was a problem. According to the price sheet it didn't sell. Yours looks more consistent with others I've checked from the old Naville sales. Initially, the hair on the Hartwig head seems a little different but I have to look at it some more.

Steve
Steve Moulding
New York

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2021, 04:36:39 am »
Hi Meepzorp, I have indeed looked at your website! You have some amazing coins and I love the work you put into presenting them; the accompanying detailed notes and holder images are super useful.

Hi SM,

Thanks for the kind words.

I began working on my project in November 2012. I began working on my website (which is Phase III of my project) in November 2015. This month is 6 years that I am working on it. I have literally thousands of hours of work invested in my website. It has consumed 6 years of my life, and there is still no end in sight.

I am glad that some people appreciate it.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2021, 04:47:14 am »
Hartwig 6 (Hyria) I have to think there was a problem. According to the price sheet it didn't sell. Yours looks more consistent with others I've checked from the old Naville sales. Initially, the hair on the Hartwig head seems a little different but I have to look at it some more.

Hi SM,

It is interesting that you mentioned that observation. About 1-2 years ago, a major European dealer had a very nice Hyria coin of that type for sale. Unfortunately, someone had tooled it in modern times. In particular, the hair was blatantly tooled. The dealer didn't realize it. I was the person who pointed it out to him in an email, which included links to untooled examples. After reading my email, he confirmed that it had been horribly tooled (especially the hair). Someone had ruined a beautiful example of that coin, one that was much better than mine. The dealer didn't withdraw the coin, but he did add a note to the text description in the sale stating that the coin had been tooled in modern times. For obvious reasons, that coin also did not sell. No one bid on it. I wonder if it is the same coin as the one in Santamaria auction catalog.

Meepzorp

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2021, 05:05:56 am »
Hi SM,

I found a post that I had made here in Forum on October 7, 2018 regarding that Hyria coin that I mentioned above.

Here is a link (scroll down to my post):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53363.575

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2021, 05:13:37 am »
Hi SM,

After examining the 2 sets of photos, I don't think it is the same coin.

Meepzorp

Offline Kevin D

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2021, 08:42:11 pm »
Thank you Kevin - glad you liked them!

Regarding the elephant...unfortunately I don't have a Vlasto in front of me so was just going off http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/calabria/taras/i.html. From the auctions they cite (Peus and Sincona), 732 is the elephant without DI and 735 for elephant+DI (and horse+rider+standing figure). Different from the 736-738 you suggested. Meepzorp's elephant is also listed as Vlasto 736. Wildwinds 736 is completely different. I need to see Vlasto as it's not clear to me.

Hi Steve,
I have dial-up internet at home, so I'm limited in what I can do. When I get to my local library next week, I will look at your website on the library's high speed computer connection.

I have a Vlasto reprint and can verify that Vlasto 732-735 (four coins) all have the DI below the dolphin (Vlasto text and plate images are in agreement on this). Vlasto 736-738 (three coins) do not have the DI below the dolphin (Vlasto text and plate images are in agreement on this).

Meepzorp's Vlasto 736 is a nice example of Vlasto 736-738.

As of today on the Wildwinds site, this is what I see regarding these coins:
The Vlasto 732 attribution by Sincona is incorrect; I believe this is really Vlasto 736-738.
The Vlasto 735 attribution by Peus is correct, my attribution for that coin would be Vlasto 732-735.
The Vlasto 736ff attribution is a typo error. Clicking on the text for the coin reveals that CNG attributed it as Vlasto 836ff, which at a glance seems correct to me.

Offline Enodia

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2021, 11:43:05 pm »
Hi Steven,

It's cool that you are able to trace the provenance of these coins, an interesting project!

The coin shown is Vlasto 736, and the elephant represents the coming of Pyrrhus, and as such falls into Evans' Type Vll category. Therefore the weight is unlikely to be in the 7 gram range (probably a typo) but rather 6+ grams, being struck after 280 on the lower standard to pay for Pyrrhus' intervention against the dreaded Romans.

~ Peter

(edit)
You might also check SNG France 1903 and Cote 391-92. McGill 76-78 are similar.



Offline STEVEN M1

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2021, 12:06:26 am »
I have a Vlasto reprint and can verify that Vlasto 732-735 (four coins) all have the DI below the dolphin (Vlasto text and plate images are in agreement on this). Vlasto 736-738 (three coins) do not have the DI below the dolphin (Vlasto text and plate images are in agreement on this).

Meepzorp's Vlasto 736 is a nice example of Vlasto 736-738.

Hi Kevin - that's great...thanks very much for confirming those Vlasto numbers! I like Meepzorp's 736 too. It's very nice.

Understood, re: your internet setup. For the rnumis website, there's not too much that would use a lot of bandwidth and slow you down when exploring the auction databases (including what I have digitized that you might need). It's very light...basically text and tables. There's nothing really there to download. The Hartwig plates I put on the server this week were a one-off exception as I know they're hard to find and thought they might be useful to somebody. I would recommend a higher speed connection for getting those.

Thanks again,

Steve
Steve Moulding
New York

Offline STEVEN M1

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2021, 12:24:22 am »
The coin shown is Vlasto 736, and the elephant represents the coming of Pyrrhus, and as such falls into Evans' Type Vll category. Therefore the weight is unlikely to be in the 7 gram range (probably a typo) but rather 6+ grams, being struck after 280 on the lower standard to pay for Pyrrhus' intervention against the dreaded Romans.

~ Peter

(edit)
You might also check SNG France 1903 and Cote 391-92. McGill 76-78 are similar.

Hi Peter, thank you! That's a great explanation of both why the elephant and why the lower weight for these coins. I was wondering about that too  :)
I've just pulled SNG France off my shelf (quite a recent add to my library, actually...I love it) and the Cote Sale. I'll be studying those examples. Thank you for the references, and McGill.

The scales may have been having an off day when they were cataloguing Hartwig...there's another coin in the McClean catalog listed as ex Hartwig. Description and size match, Weight is different, and different by a lot.  For yet another though, everything matches. Don't know.

Yes, the provenance project is interesting and fun. I want to take it a lot further but it's going to take years (it already has been years to get to this point).

Steve


 
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Offline STEVEN M1

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2021, 12:30:38 am »
Quote from: Meepzorp on November 26, 2021, 05:13:37 am
After examining the 2 sets of photos, I don't think it is the same coin.

Hi Meepzorp,

Yes I would agree that it's a different Hyrian coin. Great job on the tooling alert you sent out. That was an interesting thread to read. Thank you.
I wonder what the issue was with Hartwig 6. I need to look at it some more.

Steve
Steve Moulding
New York

Offline Enodia

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2021, 12:31:15 am »
Well I  will certainly be checking out anything else you post on the subject. Maybe I will even find further provenance for my own Taras collection!

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I believe the illustrated coin is 736 and not 37 or 38. 738 doesn't have the GY, and I don't think 737 does either, although the Vlasto plate coin is off-center so I can't be absolutely certain.

Looking forward to your future posts.

Peace,
~ Peter

Offline Enodia

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2021, 12:41:40 am »

Meepzorp's Vlasto 736 is a nice example of Vlasto 736-738.

I agree, nice coin Meep.

~ Peter

Offline Kevin D

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2021, 06:04:15 pm »
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I believe the illustrated coin is 736 and not 37 or 38. 738 doesn't have the GY, and I don't think 737 does either, although the Vlasto plate coin is off-center so I can't be absolutely certain.

Peter,
I will try to upload an image for Vlasto 738 from an original plate. I had to greatly reduce the resolution in order to upload this on my dial-up connection, but I think you can make it out well enough. It deffinetly has the GY.

I can see the GY on 738 even on my Vlasto reprint, but I know that with reprints there can be noticeable differences in plate quality, even among the same reprint issue.

I bet if we found a die match for 737 that was well centered, it would also have the GY. Maybe Ravel did that. I can verify from an original plate that with the exception of Vlasto 737 (because it is off-center) Vlasto coins 732-738 all have the GY on obverse.

Offline STEVEN M1

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2021, 06:09:57 pm »
Well I  will certainly be checking out anything else you post on the subject. Maybe I will even find further provenance for my own Taras collection!

Further provenance would be very cool! You have a great collection. Love reading your detailed notes; they're very helpful.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but I believe the illustrated coin is 736 and not 37 or 38. 738 doesn't have the GY, and I don't think 737 does either, although the Vlasto plate coin is off-center so I can't be absolutely certain.

Looking forward to your future posts.

Thanks for the clarification Peter, and thank you!

Steve

edit
Was posting this as Kevin was posting re: 738. (sorry Kevin! and thank you).
Steve Moulding
New York

Offline STEVEN M1

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2021, 06:26:49 pm »
There is a Nomos (Obolos) lot that claims to be from the same dies as Vlasto 737 (I can't verify though) and on that one the GY is visible. 
https://nomosag.com/default.aspx?page=ucAuctionDetails&auctionid=18&id=42&p=1&s=&ca=1028&type=webauction

Steve
Steve Moulding
New York

Offline Kevin D

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2021, 10:04:10 pm »
Steve,

The Vlasto 737 coin is in poor condition, and I am unable to confirm or deny the die match.

I see that at least one major auction house is listing coins of this type, without DI, as Vlasto 736-738.

Ravel makes no mention of this type without GY.

Unless coins of this type (with or without DI) can be found that clearly have no GY, I will assume that they all have GY.

Offline STEVEN M1

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Re: Hartwig (Santamaria 1910) Plates
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2021, 12:17:24 pm »
Got it. Thank you Kevin!

Steve

Steve Moulding
New York

 

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