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Author Topic: Help ID Unknown emperor ???  (Read 480 times)

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Offline Tanit

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Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« on: October 18, 2021, 11:46:29 am »
Hello
I need help identifying this strange coin

13 mm
1.47 g.

Thanks

Offline mauseus

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2021, 11:49:32 am »
Hi,

It's a contemporary imitation of a Fel Temp falling horseman coin.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Tanit

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2021, 12:14:28 pm »
Certainly not.

Regards

Offline Pekka K

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2021, 12:24:41 pm »

I'm sure that Mauseus got it rihgt.

Pekka K

Offline Tanit

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2021, 12:55:39 pm »

I'm sure that Mauseus got it rihgt.

Pekka K

I'm sure it's two wrong.  :laugh: Maybe because of the poor quality photo.

Offline Gerhard M

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2021, 01:03:37 pm »
Very good evening !

@Tanit: This is a contemporary imitation , even if you don´t want to believe it.

This is NO AUTENTIC ROMAN COIN from the fourth century !

Best regards
Gerhard

Offline Tanit

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2021, 01:21:27 pm »
This is NO AUTENTIC ROMAN COIN. Ok.
This is not a contemporary imitation.
This is a barbaric imitation like the one attached

Offline Arados

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2021, 03:37:14 am »
Contemporary imitations were made at the same time as official coins or shortly after the official coins went in to circulation. Many contemporary imitations are convincing but the majority would not fool any experienced collector.

I would describe your first coin as being a barbarous imitation.


Offline Altamura

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2021, 03:50:10 am »
Quote from: Tanit on October 18, 2021, 01:21:27 pm
... This is not a contemporary imitation.
This is a barbaric imitation like the one attached ...
What is for you the difference between the two?
For me these are not completely separated categories :-\.

Regards

Altamura

Offline Tanit

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2021, 04:44:33 am »

What is for you the difference between the two?
For me these are not completely separated categories :-\.

I'm sorry I misunderstood 'contemporary imitation': I understood current fake. So I agree and I apologize to mauseus and Pekka K for having contradicted them.

Offline Arados

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2021, 05:06:35 am »
Just out of interest Tanit, how would you now describe the second coin you posted  ::) ;D

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2021, 06:19:37 am »
Personally, I like term "an ancient imitation". It clarly states that an object is ancient but does not determine who made it: barbarian, forger etc. and when it was made: exactly at the same time as original or 50, 100, 200 years  later.
Lech Stępniewski
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Offline Tanit

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2021, 07:59:58 am »
Just out of interest Tanit, how would you now describe the second coin you posted  ::) ;D

I already posted it here and Pekka K identified it:
'Unofficial imitation of Crispus as Caesar (317-326), AE follis, issued 320 (produced c. 320-337). Imitating Thessalonica, 2.96g, 17mm.'

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=126524.msg760876#msg760876

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6511037

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2021, 02:27:28 pm »
This is interesting because I draw a distinction between "contemporary imitation" and barbaric imitation" and I would ask if my logic makes sense to you. I am certainly willing to change my current thoughts on this.

Contemporary imitation: an ancient forgery meant to be used like counterfeit money today. Not official. Coins meant to deceive.

Barbaric imitation: a coin modeled after an official coin by a tribe or group outside the official minting process of the modeled coin's origin. I never thought they were meant to really deceive because most are quite obviously stylistic in many ways. They were also "official" as far as the tribe was concerned, I assume, in most cases.

Did the Romans, for example, care if the tribes were minting coins that were modeled after theirs? I assume they did not approve of forgeries and have always thought they were probably OK with the tribal coins.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Virgil

Offline otlichnik

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2021, 06:39:17 pm »
Hoard and distribution evidence has shown that most of the so-called barbaric imitations was actually made, and used, inside the Empire.  Even very "barbaric" looking ones with entirely blundered legends.  The notion that they all come from barbaric tribes is wrong. 

It is uncertain exactly why coin designs were so "barbaric".  Some were undoubtedly due to lack of skill, others may have incorporated regional artistic styles, others may have been done on purpose to show that you were making a "currency of necessity" to meet a shortage and not engaging in true counterfeiting, as many of these imitative types were clearly tolerated by officials.

The term "barbaric" therefore is more often used today to refer to style - without actual judgement as to whether it was made inside or outside the Empire.

Similarly the term "contemporary imitation" is used, often in preference to the more judgmental "barbaric", to signify a coin type that is ancient but was not official.

Some related reading suggestions:
Jeremie Chameroy, Comment les monnaies romaines étaient-elles exportées.
Alexander Burschke, Circulation of Roman Coinage in Northern Europe in Late Antiquity
Delia Moisil, The Danube Limes and Barbaricum (294-498 AD): A Study in Coin Circulation.

The coin in question (a beautiful example by the way) is clearly a contemporary imitation of a FEL TEMP REPARATIO Falling Horseman.  With the blundered legends and odd style one could be forgiven for calling it a barbaric imitation - though that does not indicate geographic origin. 

Interestingly, the bust lacks diadem and ties, which indicates a caesar on official coins.  While exaggerated, the long hair seems to indicate an imitation of an early coin of Gallus.

SC


SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2021, 08:31:37 pm »
Shawn'
Thanks for your response, very interesting and informative. One thing I would say is that my "definitions" did not preclude tribes within the official empire necessarily. I always come back to the great Asterix cartoons on this one. The tribes were inside the empire based on what the Romans thought, but they were not as far as they themselves thought or wished. From what you said, my thoughts seem somewhat correct if I change the wording a bit. I will check out the articles you provided. I haven't read the articles, but I am struggling to understand how a hoard contents could really be so cut and dried to make an inference like "made within the empire." Used for sure, made I don't see how for unofficial coins. But the empire was full of groups that really didn't see themselves as being part of the empire I would imagine. An example would be my experience in Afghanistan. Literally no Afghan I met recognized the US as being the empire in charge (even when they collaborated with us) except when they had to. The US, of course, said otherwise. I am willing to bet it has always been so with empires and occupiers. I just don't think things are always that simple.

Regards,
Virgil

Offline lawrence c

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2021, 10:25:54 pm »
For the terminology, it's probably easier (and less subject to confusion) to use what seems to be the most common term for contemporary counterfeits: fouree. (There's an accent there that I'm not smart enough to add). Generally, these were made of base metal with a thin layer of silvering, and definitely were intended to deceive. I agree with the other comments about there being a lot of gray area in this, particularly because there is a gradient of how 'barbaric' some of these coins are. Especially with some of the coinage of Tetricus and (to a somewhat lesser degree) Claudius II, there is somewhat of a judgment call with some coins as to whether they were unofficial or simply miserable die cuts. All this is complicated with some of the earlier semi-official coinages such as limes denarii and the lightweight sesterces made even earlier under Claudius.

Offline Victor C

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2021, 10:27:43 pm »
The best way to figure out where unofficial coins were struck is where were they found? Hoard evidence is limited in usefulness because coins have probably been gathered from various places. Most helpful is site finds for single coins or just a few coins, as they would most likely have not circulated far from where they were struck. There is a useful and interesting article by C. E. King, "Roman Copies" Coin Finds and Coin Use in the Roman World. Berlin: Gebr. Mann Verlag (1996) : 237-263.

Victor Clark

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Offline Victor C

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2021, 10:33:34 pm »
Quote from: lawrence c on October 19, 2021, 10:25:54 pm
For the terminology, it's probably easier (and less subject to confusion) to use what seems to be the most common term for contemporary counterfeits: fouree. (There's an accent there that I'm not smart enough to add). Generally, these were made of base metal with a thin layer of silvering, and definitely were intended to deceive.


none of the coins in this topic so far have been silver plated; rather they are bronze unofficial issues struck contemporary with the coins that they are copying.

my page on 4th century unofficial issues
http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/barb2/
Victor Clark

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Offline Virgil H

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2021, 10:52:44 pm »
,
I am in agreement with both of your posts. I have one known contemporary counterfeit and it is not a fouree, it is a bungled copy that would look real if the engraver had not transposed letters and screwed up on the reverse a bit (and the folks on Forum pointed all these things out to me when I was stumped trying to identify it). As for hoard studies, I am very aware of the limits of scholarship and how wrong it can be. I agree you have no idea where coins from a hoard came from unless you know precisely who left the hoard there. It is all conjecture. Proximity is one thing only, unless you know who the person was (and did for a living) and where they got the coins, you have no idea. Such are the limitations of many studies and I trust none of them without a big grain of salt. LOL. In any field. Your point about single or a few coins found is a really good point, I think. I hadn't thought about that. I guess even that needs context, such as a military camp versus a caravan stop versus a farm versus the roadside.

Regards,
Virgil

Offline Victor C

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2021, 10:56:15 pm »
Your point about single or a few coins found is a really good point, I think. I hadn't thought about that. I guess even that needs context, such as a military camp versus a caravan stop versus a farm versus the roadside.


here's an example of what I was talking about.

The map is from the article written by J. P. Callu and J. P. Garnier. “Minimi constantiniens trouvés à Reims, Appendice II: Corpus des imitations.” Numismatica e Antichità Classiche 6 (1977) : 330- 315.  This map shows the locations of imitations from A.D. 330- 348.  The article lists the locations and types of imitations found, and the publication information of the finds, i.e. Numismatic Chronicle.



Victor Clark

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Offline otlichnik

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2021, 08:07:26 am »
Sorry, I often used the term "hoard evidence" as a short form for: evidence from documented hoards and finds.

No single hoard or site find will ever prove anything.  But it is studies like the one from Callu & Garnier that Victor just posted that help our true understanding.  The conclusions we have are based on a compilation of data beyond a simple single hoards or sites.

That map shows where one kind of imitations (minimized of 330-348) were found in W. Europe.  There is similar data for other types, dates and regions.  This can then be compared to finds from outside the Empire.  When imitations can be found scattered around a large region they are unlikely to have been the product of one small tribe.  When imitations are more common within the Empire than outside they are more likely to have been a product of the Empire than an outsider.  Etc.

There are other studies (I do not have the names to hand right now) that show 4th century imitations are common on military sites - which has implications for the question of their acceptance or not as semi-official coinage, but are actually more common (as a % of total finds) in the canabae - surrounding civilian settlement - than in the actual military base. 

There have been several finds, primarily in Gaul, of suspected "mints" for these unofficial coins and they are almost all in urban sites - which have been "romanized" for centuries. 

These are just examples of all the bits of data that can be drawn on to understand this phenomenon and to explain why the older, simple assumptions have been challenged over the past several decades.

SC


SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2021, 06:30:48 pm »
Shawn,
All great points, thanks for the comment, scholars do the best they can with what they have. That is all they can do and it is all good. It is one reason I was very critical of the Peter Green book, Alexander to Actium. I loved the book for the most part, but did not like some of his conclusions/statements regarding what he clearly saw as "facts" that, to me he had no way of knowing. Perhaps that is just the nature of scholars writing books for a more general audience or maybe he just has/had a really big ego. LOL. I have done scholarly writing in a different field and half of what I ever wrote was reasons why what I said might be wrong. Again, LOL.

Cheers,
Virgil

Offline Tanit

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2021, 06:11:52 am »

Is this Otacilia sestertius also a barbaric imitation?

Offline otlichnik

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Re: Help ID Unknown emperor ???
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2021, 09:38:26 am »
At first I thought it clear that this is a product of modern tooling. The obverse is blocky.  The style is odd.  And imitation sestertii are rare and often have very soft details due to the difficulty in striking such large coins.

But I am not sure.  I hope for other comments.

SC
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

 

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