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Author Topic: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?  (Read 4846 times)

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Offline helvetica

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Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« on: December 28, 2009, 12:55:37 pm »
A friend of mine has just sold this coin on a certain auction website and sent it to me for inclusion on wildwinds. Thing is, I have a bit of a problem with his imperial attribution.
It is definitely a coin of Euippe, Caria - the reverse legend of EYIPPEW(N) is clear enough and the type of a female standing left holding a patera (beneath the amphora (?) countermark) and possibly a torch, is a usual type for this rare city.
He reads the legend CEBA-CTO and attributes it to Caligula as an unpublished type. The problem is, that all the coin literature which list coins from this city (BMC, Mionnet, SNG Cop, Isegrim, Imhoof, von Aulock etc.) list only coins struck by Hadrian, Trajan, Commodus, Lucilla and Caracalla. So no earlier emperors and none from the period inbetween.
I can read the CEB beneath the bust and CTO on the left.

Is he right ? IS it an unpublished coin of Caligula ?

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2009, 02:02:13 pm »
Dear Dane and Board,

The attribution could be right.  In RPC Supplement 1, Euippe is listed as a new city.  Sorry, but I don't have this reference!  Rats.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2009, 02:57:51 pm »
If there's nothing known from before Hadrian, then Caligula seems rather a jump. It's not impossible, but I think I'd want some fairly solid evidence.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline helvetica

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2009, 03:37:22 pm »
Mark got it !!
Well well, and I never thought of looking in the Supplement. There it is, on page 34 of Supplement 1 for all to see: Euippe, S-2823B, AE 17-19mm, CEBACCTOC, laureate head right, EYPPEWN, standing figure left. From JSW (a private collector in Texas) with an unclear countermark.
And there is even an image of it.
Great ! Thanks so much Mark.

PS: It appears to be Nero, from the number.

Offline areich

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2009, 11:22:28 am »
Your friend's picture looks a lot like those of THE fake seller from Switzerland as his incarnation 'julius-nepos'.
Compared to him the rest on the 'notorious fake seller' list are just small fish.
Andreas Reich

Offline helvetica

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2009, 01:39:13 pm »
My friend julius-nepos has in the past been the victim of several fake dealers as have many other sellers which a much larger turnover than he has and has always, to my knowledge, repaid the money for any fakes which may have slipped through (e.g. the Serbian and Bulgarian ones). I have known julius-nepos for many many years, supported him through his ordeal after being placed at gunpoint and robbed by thieves purporting to be Eastern European dealers, in Berlin, I have bought hundreds of coins from him, none of which are fake (except some of those awful Bulgarian fakes which I asked him to sell me 6 years ago because I wanted them for my fakes collection).
I know the source of his coins and also know why he has had so many extremely rare ones lately, (which I have promised as his friend to keep confidential) but I can assure everyone that these are not fakes.
But this is getting off topic.
I am about to add a new Euippe page to the Greek cities list on wildwinds and found a couple of other examples too, to add to it.

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2009, 01:46:37 pm »
julius-nepos aka David Suter sells a lot of genuine coins, but he also knowingly sells a lot of fakes, and his only interest in coin discussion boards it to threaten them with lawsuits if his fakes get disclosed. He is not honest, and it is in no way surprising that he is on Forvm's fake seller list.

Lars
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Offline areich

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2009, 01:55:13 pm »
Knowingly and repeatedly selling fake coins is the definition of a 'notorious fake seller' and rightly so.
He is one of the worst frauds there is.
Andreas Reich

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2009, 07:39:40 am »
If that is the case then I was honestly not aware of it.
Could we please close this discussion now ? We were talking about Euippe  :P

Offline Britannicus

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2009, 09:49:17 am »
Perhaps, as the new owner of this item, I might add my pennyworth to the debate?
When bidding, I had no knowledge concerning the reputation of the seller, so I can't contribute anything to that particular discussion.
I researched the coin as best I could, and found a total of nine known provincials from Euippe, namely:
1.-2. Uncertain emperor/Uncertain figure standing l. (RPC I,S-2823B, JSW Coll.; the present coin);
3. Trajan/Hecate (Imhoof-Blumer, Kleinasiatische Münzen, p.127, no.1);
4. Marcus Aurelius/Apollo (ex-Righetti Coll.);
5. Commodus/River-god (RPC IV,888*, in London, previously SNG v.Aulock 2520);
6.-7. Commodus/Tyche, 2 coins (Kleinasiatische Münzen, p.128, no.2);
8. Lucilla/Hygieia (BMC 2);
9. Caracalla/Pegasus (Kleinasiatische Münzen, p. 128, no.3).
With coins of such excessive rarity, it is definitely sensible to be very cautious! I've been collecting provincials for half a century, so I'm not completely naive, in fact I tend to an almost neurotic nervousness about fakes. (Probably a healthy attitude, too, in this line of activity.) I have indeed been fooled a few times over the years, as most of us have, but not very often, and it was always with coins that "I had my doubts about".
My main doubt about this item derived from the photos, which showed a rather garish, unnatural-looking thing. When the coin arrived, these doubts disappeared. It has a sandy patina similar to that of numerous coins in my collection from Western Anatolia. It actually has two countermarks, one on each side, and possibly some evidence on the reverse of having been misstruck. It is similar to the JSW specimen, but from different dies. I went for Caligula straignt away, albeit with a question-mark, as I've seen dozens of Caligula coins from Asia Minor with this kind of sub-Augustan, "flabby-looking" portrait.
Two final points:
I don't think we can talk about a "usual type for this rare city" on the basis of only nine known specimens showing at least six different reverse types.
I don't accept the argument that the gap between Caligula and Trajan necessarily casts serious doubt on the genuineness of the coin, and for the following personal reason. When RPC I first appeared, it contained the statement that (apart from one very dubious item) there were no provincials of Istrus in Moesia before the reign of Antoninus Pius (p.308). I happened to have in my own collection a Julio-Claudian (probably Augustan) coin of Istrus. I showed it to Andrew Burnett, and it became RPC I, S-1841A ("private German collection"). Since then, a couple more have come to light (see RPC Supplement 2). (Typically, this updated information is not in Varbanov.) Now, the gap between Augustus and Pius is an even bigger one than that between Caligula and Trajan! And provincial emissions, especially from tiny cities, are often a mysterious and irregular thing.
For the moment at least I've added the coin to my Carian tray as a genuine specimen, though with a question-mark behind "Caligula".

Francis
                           

Offline areich

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2009, 11:33:41 am »
I have no doubt that the coin in question is genuine. Most of the bronzes are.

Andreas Reich

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2009, 01:44:03 pm »
I agree, I wouldn't be concerned about the authenticity of this coin. His bronzes usually are genuine, although I am quite sure that they are mostly (of course illegally) smuggled out of Turkey.

The gap between Caligula and Trajan does not seem to a be a problem to me as it is nothing unusual for a small Provincial city to issue coins only sporadically.

Lars
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Offline Britannicus

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2009, 03:46:24 pm »
Your friend's picture looks a lot like those of THE fake seller from Switzerland as his incarnation 'julius-nepos'.

Yes, I had noticed the style of the photos, which doesn't flatter the coin. There are several well-known eBay sellers whose images are distinctively ugly and garish. When the coin arrived, I was therefore happy (though not surprised) that it was nicer than the photos.

Offline areich

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2009, 07:57:04 pm »
At least it makes it easy to spot his coins and stay away from them.
Whatever he's offering, I'm not supporting a crook. He doesn't even have incompetence as his excuse
since he knows what he's doing, he follows the discussions closely. He is usually there with a legal threat in a matter of hours.
I know he's reading this one and I'm glad that free speech exists here.

Here's the current fakes, all well-known and obvious to anyone collecting for a while:

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

I didn't include the other two silvers since I couldn't say for sure.
So even if he's 'only' selling two fakes willingly at the moment that doesn't make him any less of a criminal.

I'm not saying this to to tell you things you already know, Britannicus, I just think that we should not trivialize
fake selling. Someone who knowingly and regularly sells the same fakes is a criminal, no matter how large a percentage of his coins are fake.
Andreas Reich

Offline Britannicus

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2009, 08:53:19 pm »
Actually, the points made about this gentleman in some of the posts in this thread were completely new to me, so you are telling me things that I didn't already know.   :)
I'm not trying to be disingenuous. I too would have spotted the little silver coins as fakes, even though I don't collect Greek silver. But when I do look at his eBay coins, it's the provincials, and a large proportion of these tend to be grotty, battered Cilician coins that don't interest me particularly. Looking back through my computerised records (!) I see that (apart from the Euippe coin) I've never bought anything from him before (at least under this name, does he sell under any other names?).

Perhaps I've led a sheltered life, on eBay at least. But in the non-virtual numismatic world I've experienced - either as the intended victim, or as a witness - direct cheating and swindling on numerous occasions, and sometimes involving dealers with established reputations: people trying to sell fakes, or taking the money and handing over an envelope with the wrong coin in it (or no coin at all), or using threats or strong-arm boys to "persuade" a customer to pay for a non-existent item. From the other side of the table, I once caught someone trying to pocket a gold coin, and I had a rare and beautiful coin stolen by a collector who was a prominent public figure. Then there are the customers who claim that they didn't receive the whole order sent out on approval, and refuse to pay the full amount. I expect you could add plenty of other examples. There are a lot of really good people who collect or deal in coins - but some very nasty ones as well.

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2009, 06:05:41 am »
I'm sure Francis can't be blamed for buying this coin.

Yes, that seller uses many ebay accounts, some only for selling "uncleaneds", others to sell his regular stuff. The latter can easily be detected because he always uses these pictures with extreme sidewards lighting while holding the coins in his hands. A common practice to make the relief of the coins appear higher, although to me, this kind of pictures is just ugly, no matter who the seller is.

Lars
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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2009, 10:22:05 am »

FTR here's an ugly but most likely real and remarkable bronze from this same problem dealer:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=49390.msg339740#msg339740
Temper thy haste with sloth -- Taverner / Erasmus.

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2010, 11:28:58 am »
Dear Board,

Another provincial for Francis' Euippe tally:    

Babelon, Inv. sommaire 2344
Julia Domna. Rev. EYIΠΠEΩN.  Asclépios debout. Br. 27.
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=WL4WAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA126&dq=Inventaire+sommaire+de+la+Collection+Waddington+2344&client=firefox-a&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

There also appears to be some speculation that Ephesus struck coins for Euippe.  See page 45ff. and before of the Numismatic Chronicle, 1921.     


Best regards,

Mark Fox
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Offline Britannicus

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2010, 11:42:46 am »
Thanks for the info, Mark! So now there are ten Provincial coins of Euippe known to me - at least until next week, when a Turkish farmer will find an old pot with another 120 of them!   ;)

Francis

P.S. It is a bit peculiar that none of the types are known from more than two specimens.

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2010, 08:08:45 pm »
Dear Francis and Board,

You are quite welcome!  I should point out, though, that I do not have the NC article.  I was only able to view a few vague snippets of it on Google Books, not enough to even identify the title or author.  If a fellow member happens to own the 1921 edition of NC, I would be quite interested to read a photocopy or scan of the article, and willing to pay for the postage.  It is probably the earliest work about provincial die-sharing that I have come across in English.     

Why are Euippe coins so rare?  Maybe one could help answer that by learning why an issue of coins of Tiberius from another rare city, Apollonos-Hieron (RPC 3043), are more common than one would suspect.  In the past few months I have encountered at least six different pieces.

 
Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan 

Offline Britannicus

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Re: Provincial : Euippe coin of whom?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2010, 08:54:46 pm »
Why are Euippe coins so rare?  Maybe one could help answer that by learning why an issue of coins of Tiberius from another rare city, Apollonos-Hieron (RPC 3043), are more common than one would suspect.  In the past few months I have encountered at least six different pieces.

Make that seven - I have one too, fairly recently acquired. And I've seen a couple of others at coin fairs. Although I have never thought of Apollonos-Hieron as being particularly rare.
But there are lots of things to puzzle over with provincials. Why did some comparatively minor cities strike so much coinage? Why did some rare cities (like Euippe) strike a comparatively large number of issues over a long period of time, but apparently (to judge from what has survived) only in tiny quantities? Or (like Nicopolis ad Mestum in Thrace or various South Anatolian cities) probably on only one occasion? And why did some famous cities (like Cnidus or Halicarnassus) strike so little?

Francis

 

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