Aspendos and Selge Wrestler Series? Shared Coinage?

[cogito]

I'm curious to hear thoughts about why Pisidia, Selge chose to mimic the wrestler coinage of Pamphylia, Aspendos.  Does this sharing of coinage devices suggest some sort of alliance?

Also, I was wondering if anyone knows if the coin below is definitively a Selge issue?  It was sold to me as such, but I haven't been able to find a similar "tripping wrestler move" example from Selge in the meager references I have on-hand.  The only "tripping wrestler move" examples I have found are all rare early issues from Aspendos.   

Thanks,
Jeff

[AlexB]

Hi Jeff

Isnt the legend in left field on reverse 'Aspendos' in local language?

Selge is:          SELGEWN in Greek
Aspendos is:   ESTFEDIIUS in local language.

According to Barclay Head - 'ESTFEDIIUS' corresponds with the Greek A :Greek_epsilon:Í- :Greek_Delta:É '

Brgds

Alex

[cogito]

Hi,  Alex.  Yes, it is.  But, given the reasonable reputation of the auction house and their attribution to Selge, I thought I should double-check here.  This prompted my question about the possibility of shared coinage between Selge and Aspendos.  I thought maybe the Selge attribution was predicated upon some weird shared city issues or something I haven't come across before.

Warm regards,
Jeff

[AlexB]

Jeff

Was Selge ever take over by Aspendos. I am guessing the  above athena (or is it Artemis? ) may signify Selge in this case? Also have a look at Perge, Pamphylia coins for similar coins.

Brgds

Alex

[cogito]

I'm taking the above athena to be the tail end of the ESTFEDIIUS legend.  Under this assumption, the city legend starts lower left and runs across the top, then terminates above Athena.

Thanks for the Perge suggestion.  I'll search there next.  The fact that there are wrestler types in all three Pamphylian cities is quite intriguing.  Separate from the coin attribution problem, I wonder about the purpose of this sharing of coin devices.  Maybe they were all involved in regional athletic matches?

Asia minor never ceases to mystify...

Cheers,
Jeff

[ember]

Hi all,

This is what Kraay says in ACGC.  "The influence of Aspendos extended into the inland mountains of Pisidia, where in about 375/370 Selge initiated a coinage which differed from the Aspendian only in its ethnic and in the minor symbols in the field.1  Indeed, the imitation that the same engravers appear to have served both mints, which suggests close ties of friendship between the two cities.

1 The date is given by two large hoards, Podalia buried c. 375/370 and Karaman 365/360; the former includes 202 staters of Aspendus with none of Selge, the latter 393 of Aspendos with 171 of Selge.  At Selge the knucklebone is the device which normally takes the place of the triskeles at Aspendos."

Cheers,

Darcy

[AlexB]

and following on from Ember....

http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/pisidia.html

Read 'Selge'.

As for age/tripping wrestlers I would think you have an older example. Is it 'Persic' standard as per Head?

Brgds

Alex

[cogito]

10.89 gm., so it's about .58 gm. light from the Persic stater weight noted by Head.  So, I guess this fits with the older issues.  The "tripping move" is certainly an early variant.  It's the reverse that seems later in type...to me at least.

BTW - I double-checked and the auction house amended their initial attribution from Selge, and it is now listed as Aspendos.  I still haven't found a similar example with the Athena reverse, however...

Jeff

[AlexB]

Jeff

If they have changed attribution post-sale that is in itself extremely worrying!? Or during sale...

I would guess originally someone has made the attribution based on the Athena 'statue' which was maybe famous for its siting in Selge?

I would do wider research on Selge and see what comes up.

Cheers

Alex

[cogito]

Anyone have SNG von Aulock?  4503 may be a die match, but I don't have a copy to confirm.

Jeff

[curtislclay]

Aulock 4503 is same types and same Athena statue on rev., but different dies.

[cogito]

Thanks, Curtis. 

So, Aulock 4503 is close, but direct die match yet...at least this is something.  I'm not worried about the coin's weight because it is so close to the Aspendos Eros variant I purchased from Harlan a while back.  It certainly appears genuine, but these days one can never be too careful.   Does v.Aulock note whether 4503 is one of the early Aspendos issues?  Date range given?

Jeff

[Roland Mueller]

v. Aulock text:

4503  10.73 grs.  Vs [obv] stempelgl. mit [same die as] SNG Cop. Nr. 436 (irrig unter Sillyon) [( as an error under Sillyo)] und JIAN VI, 1903 Taf. XII, 5

Roland

[curtislclay]

Dated "Circa 420-400 BC".  Date of publication of this SNG: 1965.

[bpmurphy]

This is an issue of Aspendos, not Selge. These are dated by Tekin in his unpublished doctoral dissertation to circa 420-410 BC. The first "wrestler" issues from Selge weren't struck until circa 380 BC. This is a rare issue with Athena on the reverse. There is a specimen in von Aulock (already mentioned, 4503) and the type is missing from SNG France, SNG Copenhagen and BMC.

Barry Murphy

[cogito]

Thanks, Barry...Curtis, Alex, Roland, and others! 

Barry, do you have the full reference for the Tekin dissertation?  I'm hoping I can run down a copy or order it from UMI (if recent and domestic).  Also, I'm curious that you mentioned that this "Athena" type is missing from SNG Copenhagen given the listing text in SNG v.Aulock, which suggests that the die is in SNG Cop. as #436...though apparently misfiled under the wrong region/type. 

While we're getting into attribution arcana.  Does anyone know to what the "JIAN VI, 1903" refers to in the SNG v.Aulock 4503 listing text?

Thanks,
Jeff

[curtislclay]

I think the periodical edited by Svoronos, of which a reprint exists, Journal international d'archéologie numismatique, Athens 1898-1927.

[cogito]

This makes sense, particularly if the Svoronos periodical was published annually, in which case the VI, 1902 designation fits with a stated periodical start date of 1898.

Thanks,
Jeff

[bpmurphy]

Hmm. It is in Copenhagen under Sillyum. I wouldn't have ever looked there, I guess I should have looked in von Aulock instead of just relying on this discussion. Copenhagen also refers to the JIAN article and say "erroneously described and attributed to Aspendus."

The legend is clearly that of Aspendos. von Aulock, written after Copenhagen, reattributes them back to Aspendos.

I wonder what led them to that attribution? There are no other contemporary issues at Sillyum. The next series in Copenhagen is dated to the 3rd Century BC and the types aren't related.

By the way, the Copenhagen specimen appears to be the same reverse die as the coin being discussed here.

Barry Murphy

[cogito]

Thanks, Barry.  It is odd that it would be attributed in Cop. to Sillyum.  Maybe the :Greek_Sigma: above Athena threw them off or something...

Do you have a full reference for the Tekin dissertation (i.e., first name, school, year, title, etc.)? 

Thanks,
Jeff