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Author Topic: Issues and mints  (Read 4053 times)

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Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2016, 02:04:27 pm »

SAECVLARES AVGG issue, with Latin officina numbers: 62, 56, 60, 72, 62, 93.

Final issue of reign, with Greek officina numbers: 37, 29, 39, 27, 32, 26.


Those numbers are for RIC? i tried to search those coins on ac search, didnt found with ric numbers. I tried Octacilia sev ric 115 as example.

Sometime i try to apply those elements and it dnt work. Example:
When i study book on Probus i read:

Siscia:
1rst issue:
Rev/ CLEMENTIA TEMP, obv/ IMP C M AVR PROBUS AVG, officina A, E, VI
Rev/ CONCORD MILIT, obv/ IMP C M AVR PROBUS AVG
Its ok here we have same obv legend but bust type change and for CLEMENTIA we have type with paludamentum or without.

Lyon:
2nd issue:
Rev/ MARS VICTOR, obv/ IMP C M AVR PROBUS  AVG, officina II

3rd issue:
 same with obv/ IMP C M AVR PROBUS PF AVG // IMP C M AVR PROBUS AVG, officina II and III.

And i dnt talk about the 4, 5 ,6 7th issues, all with same reverse with differents bust types, officinas and legends for obv and rev.

If we keep all mints by issues we have differents obv and rev types, bust and legends.
Probus 276--282 so 3rd century. As you say issues are determined by reverse on that period. Or its 1rst to 3rd century. In any case, for Probus i dnt see how to etablish issues by obv or rev here. The only points who help are the bust types where we see similarity with TACITUS or FLORIANUS bust.

Other point for example Lyon, i read:
Issue 2 / officina ll, bust  B, legend 2a, reverse type A
Issue 3 / officina ll and lll, bust B, legend 1a and 2a, reverse type A

So we can have the 2 same coins for two differents issues. Or the mark lll only appear with legend 1a?

I own this book: http://www.cgb.fr/tresors-monetaires-xviii-la-chapelle-les-luxeuil-haute-saone-15-518-nummi-constantiniens-gricourt-daniel,LT40,a.html
 and here i clearly see what you explain, issues by marks. But they rank coin's issues by mint.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2016, 06:44:32 pm »

SAECVLARES AVGG issue, with Latin officina numbers: 62, 56, 60, 72, 62, 93.

Final issue of reign, with Greek officina numbers: 37, 29, 39, 27, 32, 26.


Those numbers are for RIC? i tried to search those coins on ac search, didnt found with ric numbers. I tried Octacilia sev ric 115 as example.

For heaven's sake no! As I plainly stated, those are the numbers of specimens found in the Dorchester hoard for the six types in each issue, proving that the mint's volume of production was about the same for each of them.

Searching CoinArchives Pro for "Otacilia RIC 115", I find pictures of 11 specimens. Surely a similar result must be obtainable from acsearch.

Re Probus, I have tried to explain to you above how I think issues of Roman coins should be defined.

Other authors may or may not have followed my principles. But you will have to figure that out yourself; I cannot read and critique their works for you!
Curtis Clay

Offline SC

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    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2016, 08:52:02 pm »
By the way, I forgot to mention that French emissions and English issues are not always the exact same.  Pierre Bastien gave a definition of emissions once (I forget exactly where, likely one of the volumes of Le monnayage de l'atelier de Lyons) which made an emission a unit of work, or a tasking, assigned to a mint.  So he thought that an emission was a directive like "strike 10 million sestertii for me with Victory and Justitia reverses".  He noted that an emission could include more than one mint mark in cases where several marks were used in close succession.  So one of his emissions would equal several of our issues.  This just cautions us to be careful in understanding and using these terms.

COINS FAN Comme vous etes un francophone vous pouvez trouverez les livres de Pierre Bastien, Claude Brenot, Georges Depeyrot et Sylvaine Estiot.

Shawn
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2016, 08:54:37 pm »
By the way, I forgot to mention that French emissions and English issues are not always the exact same.  Pierre Bastien gave a definition of emissions once (I forget exactly where, likely one of the volumes of Le monnayage de l'atelier de Lyons) which made an emission a unit of work, or a tasking, assigned to a mint.  So he thought that an emission was a directive like "strike 10 million sestertii for me with Victory and Justitia reverses".  He noted that an emission could include more than one mint mark in cases where several marks were used in close succession.  So one of his emissions would equal several of our issues.  This just cautions us to be careful in understanding and using these terms.

COINS FAN Comme vous etes un francophone vous pouvez trouverez les livres de Pierre Bastien, Claude Brenot, Georges Depeyrot et Sylvaine Estiot.

Shawn


Yes Shawn, i have not read completly them yet. But already read some parts. And everything confused me. Thats why i didnt understood Curtis correctly since many replys. My other books in french, as you explain, talk about emission too.

Curtis, Im sorry, since beginning i believed you explained me how all searchers work for etablish issues. Never i imagined there can be so much differences between their works. So yes now this is clear.
Foolishly i was sure that searchers was agree on many points about roman coinage, so therefore they has similar work on issues. And that english issues and "emission" was the exact same.
For my question about officinas, i made translate error.

Thank you both.

Offline SC

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    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2016, 09:06:42 pm »
Your questions were really good ones.  Ones we don't ask often enough.  It was good for me to look up some information again and re-visit my ideas, and to read Curtis' answers on the earlier period.

I learned a great deal over the years from the French authors I listed.  It is too bad that they aren't more widely known among the English language crowd but few publish in anything but French.

Shawn
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2016, 09:43:01 pm »
Shawn,

A definition like Bastien's, assuming you've remembered it right, is silly, because of course we can never know anything about those hypothetical mint directives, and therefore, using this definition, we can never say anything about issues!

We can only define issues not from the mint's point of view, but from our own. So, at its simplest: an issue is any chronologically definable body of coinage. How the mint thought about that body of coinage, and how few or how many directives were required to produce it, is unknowable and therefore irrelevant.

I suppose that Bastein may have defined his issues in the same way I would, on the basis of types, imperial titles, issue and officina marks, portrait development, and so on, and then simply postulated that each of his resulting issues was the product of one mint directive. But such an assumption is pure speculation which is absolutely unconfirmable, so does nothing to advance our knowledge or understanding.
Curtis Clay

 

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