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Author Topic: Issues and mints  (Read 4052 times)

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Offline COINS FAN

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Issues and mints
« on: January 08, 2015, 09:26:37 am »
I create this topic for my last questions about romans coins and in hope it ll help other peoples facing the same questions.

After some disccusions here or many thing i read, i ask me how work issues?

Curtis clay told me that there is no case where two officinas dnt struck same metal. But someone other told that for specials evenements, they strcuk medaillons in gold and bronze. I prefer believe Curtis Clay, but with all of it i ask me:
- Is all mints struck same metal in same time?
- An issue is often with differents metals, so in case of my 1rst question, officina A, B and C struck first (for example) bronze and then when its done, they struck silver?
- I saw there is phasis in issues, what is it?

And i read " the various reverse types of the first period of Domitian inherited from Vespy/Titus are about 7-8 and again obv die links are rare and styles specif, thus they were 7-8 officinas which after the reform were contracted to 4."
I dnt understand how we can determine number of officinas, watching the number of differents reverse types.

Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2015, 09:31:45 am »
No reply?

Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2016, 10:25:20 am »
If someone can reply now it should be cool, i still ask me same questions on this subject.   :)

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 10:41:05 pm »
There are other Forvm threads or contributions relevant to these questions, but they may not be easy to find.

Reverse types are often equated with officinae because when officinae were first marked, in the final two issues of Philip I and family, each officina had its own reverse type. So officina I = A had the type Lion, then in the next issue TR P V Mars; officina II = B had She-wolf and twins, then TRANQVILLITAS AVGG; and so on.

So it's tempting to suppose that each rev. type was produced by its own workshop at the mint, with each workshop perhaps even having its own engravers. This theory is pretty much destroyed, however, by Colin Kraay's recognition that overstruck rev. dies mean that two rev. dies were being employed alternately with the same obverse die. Those overstruck rev. dies were often of different types; so each reverse type was not being struck separately in its own workshop! Rev. dies of different types were often being struck alternately at one and the same obv. die.

The important thing to establish is which rev. types were being struck simultaneously in the same issue, what the relative production volumes of those types were, and finally the correct order and approximate absolute dates of the different issues. Exactly how the mint arranged its production of these coins is largely unknowable, and of very minor importance anyway. To answer economic and historical questions, we just need to know in what order and in what volume and approximately when the various types were produced.

Robert Carson's "cyclical" theory of coin production, namely that the different metals and denominations were produced one after the other in the same workshops, cannot be correct. There are many very rare coin types or varieties, which obviously cannot have remained in production more than a week or maybe a month, so on Carson's theory should only appear on one denomination, or possibly two denominations if the hypothetical switch between them happened to fall in the course of the week or weeks in question. But such rare varieties regularly appear on three or more denominations. For example the very rare coins of Julia Mamaea spelling her name IVLIA MAMIAS AVG or AVGVSTA: sestertii, dupondii, and denarii are known, and it will not be surprising if an aureus too someday turns up. Such rare issues, known in multiple denominations, prove that the mint was perfectly capable of producing all three metals, and all denominations, at one and the same time. It is obvious that the production of gold and silver coins on the one hand, and bronze coins on the other, was each largely continuous and simultaneous with one another; there was no alternation of production between precious and base metals as Carson supposed.

A "phase" of an issue is a part which can be chronologically marked off by some change. For example Mamaea's MAMIAS coins could be called the "first phase" of her first issue. Or if you desire, you could call the MAMIAS coins Issue 1, and the MAMAEA coins with the same IVNO CONSERVATRIX rev. type Issue 2. That would produce difficulties, however: a very small Issue 1, and no way of marking off which of the contemporaneous coins of Severus Alexander belonged to Issue 1 and which to Issue 2.

Curtis Clay

Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2016, 09:55:20 am »
Thank you, thats perfect. I have to understand some points when i read with my level in english.

This theory is pretty much destroyed, however, by Colin Kraay's recognition that overstruck rev. dies means that two rev. dies were being employed alternately with the same obverse die. Those overstruck rev. dies were often of different types; so each reverse type was not being struck separately in its own workshop! Rev. dies of different types were often being struck alternately at one and the same obv. die.


The term "Die" mean, as i know, the thing who strike coins. With the recess picture right? So how can they overstrike a die? In theory if a die is overstrucked by another die we have a raised patern. Another point, why overstrike a die, and more with another type? I mean: a die is probably in really resistant metal, so to overstrike a die we need a not worned out die. The overstrike ll worn out the 2 dies, so maybe we win time with 2 dies, but they ll probably break soon. Or its for little quantity, so in any case why dnt use a simple die or construct a 2nd?
And if at the end of one issue, all metals were struck, but someone decide they need more denarii with "CLARITAS AVG" reverse type. The officinae who strike those since beggining, can be the same and only officinae who strike the extra asked coins.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2016, 10:45:42 am »
I am referring to coins whose obverses are normal, but whose reverses show the impression of one die overstruck on the impression of another die.

Kraay's simple but brilliant idea: those two reverse dies were being applied alternately at the same obverse die. Occasionally finished coins were not removed quickly enough from the obverse die, so their reverses were mistakenly struck a second time with the other reverse die.

The term "die" is often used loosely to mean not the die itself, but the impression from it. After comparing two coins, I may say "That's the same obverse die" rather than "These two coins were struck from the same obv. die."
Curtis Clay

Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2016, 01:44:31 pm »
The term "die" is often used loosely to mean not the die itself, but the impression from it. After comparing two coins, I may say "That's the same obverse die" rather than "These two coins were struck from the same obv. die."

Its ok  :)


So it's tempting to suppose that each rev. type was produced by its own workshop at the mint


1) Workshop mean officinae?

I have now some other questions like:

2) Is every coins with same obverse, all from same issue?

3) You say it ll be not surprising if an Aureus of IVLIA appear because there is already sestertii, denarii and dupondii. This is not really a question, i just understand there is probability they struck aurei but not necessary, am i wrong?


Robert Carson's "cyclical" theory of coin production, namely that the different metals and denominations were produced one after the other in the same workshops, cannot be correct.

4) Robert Carson mean workshop 1 strike sestertii, then denarii, same time workshop 2 do same?


There are many very rare coin types or varieties, which obviously cannot have remained in production more than a week or maybe a month, so on Carson's theory should only appear on one denomination, or possibly two denominations if the hypothetical switch between them happened to fall in the course of the week or weeks in question. But such rare varieties regularly appear on three or more denominations. For example the very rare coins of Julia Mamaea spelling her name IVLIA MAMIAS AVG or AVGVSTA: sestertii, dupondii, and denarii are known, and it will not be surprising if an aureus too someday turns up. Such rare issues, known in multiple denominations, prove that the mint was perfectly capable of producing all three metals, and all denominations, at one and the same time.


5) I dnt understand, if same variety appear on 3 denominations, it can mean that this is the same engraver so maybe same workshop who struck all denominations. For example: An variety on 2 denarii with same obverse and reverse Annona, one coin has cornucopia and rudder and the 2nd has cornucopia, rudder and prow. We agree those 2 coins are from same issue or im wrong. But they wasnt made on same workshop.


A "phase" of an issue is a part which can be chronologically marked off by some change. For example Mamaea's MAMIAS coins could be called the "first phase" of her first issue. Or if you desire, you could call the MAMIAS coins Issue 1, and the MAMAEA coins with the same IVNO CONSERVATRIX rev. type Issue 2. That would produce difficulties, however: a very small Issue 1, and no way of marking off which of the contemporaneous coins of Severus Alexander belonged to Issue 1 and which to Issue 2.



6) Phase or issue, its subjective as i understand.

Thank you for reply, i try to clearly understand. When i traduce and have doubt, i ask.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2016, 03:43:16 pm »
1. Yes. Officina (Latin) = Workshop (English).

2. No. Obverse dies can pass from one issue to the next. Sometimes they were even put away and then used again years later.

3. Gold was probably not struck continuously, so maybe no MAMIAS aurei were ever struck. They could have been, however, so it would not be surprising if one turned up.

4. Yes, Carson's assumption was that the whole mint, so every workshop, would be striking just one metal at any particular time, then would change simultaneously to the following metal.

5. Carson thought that the mint struck only one metal at a time, and that for quite a long time, several months, before changing to the next metal. Therefore rare varieties, like MAMIAS, should appear in only one metal on his theory. It is extremely unlikely that MAMIAS dies remained in use after the mint was informed that the correct spelling was MAMAEA !

6. Formation and dating of issues is always a modern construction. Issue numbers are not given on the coins, and mint records have not survived. Moneyers' names on Republican coins or issue marks on many Hellenistic or late Roman coins help greatly in forming issues, of course.
Curtis Clay

Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2016, 11:23:58 am »
Its ok, i understood everything, but  8):

5) You mean same error appear on different denominations. So when they struck coins, they used multiple dies, made by differents engravers, all with same error?

To complete all, as i understood in 6, issues and phase are hypotetical and subjective, ok, but if we consider everything you explained me, its clearly impossible to know (except for republic or issues marks on late roman coins) what coin come from same issue than other right?
My last question, for example 2 denarii:
 O/ IMP CAES T AEL HADR ANTONINVS AVG PIVS P P Laureate head of Antoninus Pius to right. Rev. TR POT XV COS IIII / PAX Pax standing left, holding branch in her right hand and long scepter in her left.
And:
O/ IMP CAES T AEL HADR ANTONINVS AVG PIVS P P Laureate head of Antoninus Pius to right. Rev. TR POT XIIII - COS IIII// TRANQ Tranquillitas

Its ok here, whit reverse we can date the 2 coins, but when reverse has no date legend? Can it be possible 2 coins with same obverse and 2 differents reverse without date legend, came from same issue. Can we imagine 2 worshops working on denarii same time; the firts on victoria reverse, the second on abudentia?

An idea i have: on late roman coins we see, for same emperor, many differents reverses, obverses and many assiociations of them. If we had exergue with dots, no dot, marks, we have a crazy number of issues. I imagine romans got a nice idea to control strike. We know how many coins a die can strike before break. So every mark is a print of one specific die. Then they look at how many differents marks were struck and they know how many coins were struck. Maybe engravers had their own marks like on modern coins. And more it permit to identifiate better copys. Fake old coins with high quality are never perfect but can mislead. With those little marks its arder to copy. Im aware there is coins with same mark but with different engravure style, that proof there wasnt one mark for one die. And im aware too that they always looked at the bullion's number to know how many coins can be struck. But if stealers in the mint?
Another point: exergue marks can permit to watch coin's dispersion in a large empire. Maybe romans analyzed deeply their economy. Or maybe i must stop raving.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2016, 07:18:23 pm »
5. I don't understand the point of your question. MAMIAS was not the error of a particular engraver, or of several engravers; obviously at the very beginning of the new reign, the whole mint of Rome thought that her name was to be spelled MAMIAS, but was very soon informed that she preferred the Latinized MAMAEA. Maybe MAMIAS was considered to be too reminiscent of the name of her recently assassinated and condemned sister, SOAEMIAS.

6. Just because there are usually no explicit ancient sources for the reconstruction of issues does not mean that every modern attempt to reconstruct them is doomed to be conjectural and probably wrong! The coins themselves usually provide adequate evidence to correctly reconstruct the sequence of issues.

The two denarii of A. Pius that you mention: they belong to the same issue, but have different rev. types and one was struck later than the other, as shown by their tribunician numbers. This issue included one more type of Pius, PIETAS TR POT XIIII/XV COS III; it began in TR P XIIII and continued into TR P XV. During the early-mid empire the essential criterion that signaled the beginning of a new issue was a change of reverse types, not a mere change of tribunician number.

Yes there are many varieties of late Roman coins, but far fewer issues. The bronze coins usually have not only mintmarks specifying the mint, but additional exergue and field marks specifying the issue and the officina number. The difficulty is only to put those different issues of bronze coins in the correct chronological order; and to work out the chronology of the gold and silver coins, which usually don't bear issue marks.
Curtis Clay

Offline rennrad12020

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2016, 07:57:59 pm »
This is very interesting!  Aureus are off my radar as a collector. After doing some quick searches it is evident that aureus and denarius sometimes share obv dies as they are the same size.  Is there evidence of aureus and denarius sharing both obv and rx dies?

JPW

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2016, 09:00:15 pm »
Early empire: aurei and denarii usually share the same dies. Cf. von Kaenel, Claudius, die cat. 3, an aureus and a denarius from the same die pair. Cat. 25: ditto, just to name his first two examples.

It may have been under Domitian, c. 85 AD, that aurei began to be struck from larger and finer dies than denarii, so no more die sharing.

Under Trajan and early Hadrian, aurei and denarii still occasionally shared dies. Woytek, without undertaking the mammoth task of cataloguing Trajan's aurei and denarii by dies, nevertheless noted 11 cases of die links between aurei and denarii of his reign. BMC III pl. 44.1-2: an aureus and denarius of Hadrian in 117 sharing the same rev. die.

From the middle of Hadrian's reign until the replacement of the denarius by the antoninianus as standard silver coin under Balbinus and Pupienus, however, I think aurei were always struck from broader, finer dies than denarii.

Even after Domitian/mid-Hadrian, however, it was normal for gold and silver quinarii to be struck from the same dies, as can easily be seen from the plates of Cathy King's quinarius book.
Curtis Clay

Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2016, 10:33:31 am »
Thank you, im sorry for so many questions. I think i was confused because i imagined isues as a massive strike of denominations for a simultaneous distribution. Here i see that a long time has passed by between strike and distribution, if tribunician numbers change for same issue.
I understood now for MAME legend.
So tell me if im wrong: this legend with MAMIA proof the strike was quick and on multiple denominations. Their distribution was quick too because they would melt again in front of distribute.
An issue fill the need of denominations for peoples. Thats why sometime there is all denominations and sometime only 2. But why strike coins with an tribunitian number and wait so much time before distribute?

7) 2 coins of same issue has same obverse die, including bare head or laureate, bear and all details?

8) I already know for Denarii dies used for aurei, is that proof denarii with this obverse was the las striked? Did we saw same on other denominations?

Yes there are many varieties of late Roman coins, but far fewer issues. The bronze coins usually have not only mintmarks specifying the mint, but additional exergue and field marks specifying the issue and the officina number. The difficulty is only to put those different issues of bronze coins in the correct chronological order; and to work out the chronology of the gold and silver coins, which usually don't bear issue marks.

A coin with TRP  :dot: in exergue:branchesthreeleft: its Treverii 1rts officinae but what mean the dot and the symbol?

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2016, 11:39:42 am »
An "issue" is simply a discernible chronological slice of coin production, without any implication of when and how and for what reason those coins were put into circulation. Presumably most of the newly produced coins were immediately used to pay salaries and other government debts. It is a mistake to think that an "issue" must have had a particular "occasion", and that all the coins of an issue must have been kept together at the mint and then released at one time, in connection with the "occasion". The mint produced coins primarily to pay government debts; "propaganda" or "commemorative" purposes via the coin types were usually far less important.

I am fairly sure that MAMIAS coins were no longer struck after the correction to MAMAEA was made. I am not sure whether all the MAMIAS coins in the mint's storage rooms were then also melted down. It would have been a lot of extra work to restrike them all, and doubtless there were urgent bills that needed to be paid.

7. Primary criteria for issue definition: moneyer's names under the Republic, issue marks on Hellenistic and late Roman coins, reverse types on 1st-3rd cent. Roman coins. Each issue, as so defined, might contain many variations of obv. and rev. type and legend.

There is no presumption, when aurei and denarii share dies, that the aurei were necessarily produced first and the denarii afterwards. The mint simply produced whichever denomination it needed and had the bullion for, from whatever aureus/denarius dies were at hand.

On the Treviri coins you mention, the branch and pellet, in combination with the exact form of the mintmark and location of the officina letter, are the issue marks I have been talking about.
Curtis Clay

Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2016, 02:58:43 pm »
Oh ok, everything is clear now, issue term confused me. I was sure we known enough things on roman's economy to identifiate "issues" numbers for many emperors. "Issue" term in french mean "emission", himself meaning "emit" .

A big thank you Curtis for all those replys, it was hard to traduce Books with all words who confused me, like issue, die and others. Issue is our modern concept who just specify an period of strike.

8) Remember me: On an issue all denominations has exactly same obverse, like bare heard, bear, legend...? An sestercius ll have same obverse than denarii?

9) Urbs Roma with she-wolf has all same obverse, for trier there is many marks as TR :dot:P , TRP  :dot: ... and i see mint activity 332/333 this is short for so much symbols. As you say, there is on late romans coins, many marks but far fewer issues. So what mean all those combinations? I understood what you said so one combination cant be one issue.

 There is a lot of marks who's nature's symbols. Can we consider a theory (mine) as:
 :branchleft: mean spring,  :branchesthreeleft: mean summer... Christian's symbols mean a month.

I still post some questions, the last, till you have the strengh and kindness to reply  ;)

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2016, 04:51:17 pm »
8) Remind me: In an issue all denominations have exactly the same obverse, like bare head and same legend...? And sestertii have the same obverse as denarii?

No, not necessarily. I just answered this: "7. Primary criteria for issue definition: moneyer's names under the Republic, issue marks on Hellenistic and late Roman coins, reverse types on 1st-3rd cent. Roman coins. Each issue, as so defined, might contain many variations of obv. and rev. type and legend." It is these criteria which define the issue, which may have one or more obv. legends and bust types, and one or more rev. legends and rev. types.

See for example my recent Forvm reply to MaynardGee about his unpublished sestertius of Commodus. All of the coins I describe in that reply belong to the same issue, struck during the first half or so of 189 AD.

As to the Urbs Roma coins: each configuration of issue marks defines a separate issue, except of course that changing officina numbers do not make up different issues. The coins of Constantine and his sons with the same issue marks belong to those same issues. I do not believe that the issue marks generally had coded meanings, referring for example to different times of the year as you suggest.
Curtis Clay

Offline SC

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2016, 12:07:35 pm »
"Issue" is a modern idea and there is no absolute definition.

As Curtis notes, all coins with the same reverse marks are generally considered to be the same issue.  This means the marks in the field and the marks in the exergue.  So, for example, the ❋ / PCONST issue struck at Constantina (Arelate) 330 - 331 consists of GLORIA EXERCITVS two standard type for Constantine I, Constantine II, and Constantius II; plus the VRBS ROMA and CONSTANTINOPOLIS types.  This is all one issue even though it involved three different reverse types and five different coins.

The bust type should not matter.  At least for small variations.  So if that above issue was found with, say, rosette diadem and pearl diadem for Constantine I, or with, say, draped bust and cuirassed bust for Constantius II, then all of these should be considered the same issue.  As long as the same ❋ / PCONST marks are used.

But we have to be careful as sometimes the same marks were repeated for different issues.  For example, the PROVIDENTIAE AVGG and PROVIDENTIAE CAESS campgates from Antioch are found with two mint marks SMANTA and  :dot: / SMANTA.  At first this looks like two issues.  However it was actually five issues:

324 - 325  SMANTA
325 - 326   :dot: / SMANTA
326 - 327  SMANTA
328 - 329   :dot: / SMANTA
329 - 300   SMANTA

For these issues Constantine I uses three different busts - laureate head, diadem head and diadem bust.  These different busts help us to be able to tell the issues apart.  However, they are not different issues because of the different busts.  They are different issues because of the different mint marks - even if they are re-used mint marks.  The busts help us, and the Romans, tell them apart.

Shawn
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Offline COINS FAN

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2016, 12:40:32 pm »
Ok this is more clear, thank you both. The only point who still trouble me: on 1rst or 2nd century for example, as i understood there is many obv and rev types, legends, variations. So how can we know its same issue for 2 coins if they completly different obverse and reverse? Variations are just some change like P ANT FEL and P ANT FELIX, in that case i understand. But no 2 obv with completly differents legends, except for tribunician numbers. Sorry olichnik, im french, i try to understand all words in their exact meaning.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2016, 04:37:55 pm »
Thanks to Shawn for his more detailed examples of the definition and composition of a late Roman bronze issue.

The repetition of the same issue marks at Antioch is complicated! The critical reader is likely to ask himself, How in the world was that ever figured out?

Therefore it might be good to add a brief explanation, stating who was chiefly responsible for figuring it out, and what his evidence was. Apparently bust type evolution was important, as Shawn does mention.

As to obverse legends, issues by definition include coins struck at about the same time, so naturally their obv. legends, for each personage represented, will usually all be the same or very similar.

But since earlier Roman issues are determined by reverse types, it could easily happen that the obv. legend changed in the course of the issue.

As we have seen, Mamaea's obv. legend changed from MAMIAS to MAMAEA in the course of her first issue, defined by the use of her rev. type IVNO CONSERVATRIX.

Another example: Septimius Severus' issue of denarii with types PROVID AVGG, VIRT AVGG, and PROFECT AVGG FEL started with obv. legend

L SEPT SEV AVG IMP XI PART MAX, then continued with the abbreviated form
 
SEVERVS AVG PART MAX.

I indicated briefly above why it would be confusing to start a new issue with these obv. legend changes, rather than waiting for the next change of rev. type: the mint was also striking coins for Severus Alexander in the first case, and Julia Domna in the second, but for neither of them was there an obv. legend change corresponding to MAMIAS/MAMAEA for Mamaea and the shortening of Septimius' legend. Their coinages continued unchanged after the introduction of the new obv. legends for Mamaea and Septimius respectively; so it would be impossible to divide their contemporaneous coinages correctly between the two issues, if we unwisely decided to begin new issues when the obv. legends of Mamaea and Septimius changed.
Curtis Clay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2016, 09:25:32 am »
Reverse types determine issues on 1rst to 3rd century, ok. From where we know it? I mean, what in numismatic history, show that reverse determine issue?

Im confused because you say reverse types determine issues. But you show differents reverse types for Alexander from same issue.
You mean that not only one reverse type determine issue? In that case, the question up is still same. How we know that?

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2016, 12:42:18 pm »
Curtis is right about the challenge figuring out the Antioch mint  On his suggestion I will briefly lay out the who and how: 

It is described in Bruun's RIC-VII under the introduction to the Mint of Antioch.  (I don't know if it was treated earlier by Maurice.  I have his Numismatique Constantinienne volumes but have not looked it up.)  Anyway, for those issues it was rather easy for him to figure it out. 

The camp gate types were struck between 324 and 330.  Over that period the bust types changed.  Looking at the SMANTA and  :dot: / SMANTA marks Bruun was faced with two possibilities.  Either the two marks were each used only once, but with several different bust types in the same issue.  Or the bust types developed over time and the mint marks were therefore re-used.  Using just the camp gate type would have meant some guesswork was necessary to place the busts in order.  Luckily there were also several other, shorter-lived, types struck during that same period.  This allowed Bruun to track the changes in the bust types and then assign the issues.

However, such work is not always possible.  For example, the very same two issues for the PROVIDENTIAE CAESS type for the caesars is more problematic.  The bust types only change in size.  Bruun noted that the three different SMANTA issues were therefore struck with different bust sizes - large, medium and small.  However, when I study these types I can not really find a medium bust size.  I find a large size and then a smaller size which has a continuum from medium to small with no clear break.  (A couple of years ago I looked at over 100 from the SMANTA issue trying to make sense of it.)  So was Bruun right that there were three sizes?  If so he must have had some evidence or statistics that he never published.  Or am I right that there are really only two bust sizes.  If I am right, then there is no way to distinguish two of the SMANTA issues for the PROVIDENTIAE CAESS type.   If Bruun is right then there is a way but I can't find any objective metric (i.e. measurement ranges for bust height or width of bust base) to allow us to do it.

In other cases there was a lot of guess work that was involved.  Sometimes we neglect the caveats in the various RIC volumes and LRBC and other works where the authors highlight their uncertainty, note that some designations are tentative or speculative, etc.

Shawn
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2016, 02:29:36 pm »
This is really interesting. Here i see more on how to work on issues.

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2016, 04:15:28 pm »
Shawn, thanks for the summary.

Looking in RIC, I see that other factors are the inclusion or omission in an issue of Crispus and Fausta, who died in 326; changes in the depiction of Helena's diadem; the number of officinae in each issue and for which emperors or empresses each officina struck. It is not easy, however, to absorb all this evidence and evaluate its relevance to the reconstruction of the issues!

As to reverse types defining issues, we can start again from the first two issues bearing officina numbers at the mint of Rome, produced for Philip I and family in 248 AD. Each of these issues contained six reverse types, namely four for Philip I (officinae 1-2 and 5-6), one for Philip II (officina 3), and one for Otacilia Severa (officina 4). Moreover the six types in each issue were apparently all struck in about the same volume on antoniniani, as indicated by specimen counts for that denomination in large hoards. In the Dorchester hoard, for example, Philip's two marked issues were represented by the following numbers of antoniniani per type/officina:

SAECVLARES AVGG issue, with Latin officina numbers: 62, 56, 60, 72, 62, 93.

Final issue of reign, with Greek officina numbers: 37, 29, 39, 27, 32, 26.

Obverse die links between the issues, as I have been able to establish, show that the Greek-numbers issue followed the Latin-numbers issue, and that these were the last two issues of the reign.

This is obviously solid knowledge, that no one will be able to dispute. We know for certain which types made up the final two issues of Philip's reign at Rome, and what the chronological order of those two issues was.

Now the entire Roman imperial coinage up to 248 unfortunately bears no officina numbers.  Would it not be a wonderful achievement if we could arrange that coinage too with the same certainty that we can arrange Philip's coinage in the final year of his reign? Which reverse types in each reign were struck alongside each other as parts of the same issue, and what was the correct chronological order of those issues, once we have been able to reconstruct them?  If we could reconstruct the coinage of each reign in this way, we would be able to establish the precise relative order, and approximate absolute date, for all of the many "undated" types that occur in virtually every reign, including of course the types that each emperor struck for other members of his family.

So if you want to establish "issues" for the coinage of the earlier Roman empire, you have to start with reverse types. No other approach will be able to produce convincing or even relevant results.



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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2016, 08:12:10 pm »
Do you talk about those coins: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=46408 ?
Here i read 6. Do you have photos of those officina numbers?

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Issues and mints
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2016, 08:44:17 pm »
Yes, you link to an antoninianus of Philip I from officina 6 (Latin number).

These are very common coins. There must be dozens of illustrations of them in acsearch. Just search in acsearch or Wildwinds for

Philip I, RIC 7-10 and 12-21

Otacilia Sev., RIC 115-116

Philip II, RIC 223-224.
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