Al-Amir al-Mansur (495-524 AH = 1101-1130 AD). AV Dinar

[Derek A]

Hi

My first entry on the forum. 

I've recently taken an interest in gold coins and I am looking to collect an example of those that I consider to be representative of the evolution of gold coinage (and of course which I can afford!). For each I like to prepare a description of the coin and its historical context.  One of my first coins, and probably the only Islamic one I will acquire, is: Fatimids. Al-Amir al-Mansur (495-524 AH = 1101-1130 AD). AV Dinar (20 mm, 4.31 g), Misr, 524 AH.Album 729.

The historical context is straightforward but my problem is in the description of the coin when I don't understand Arabic.  I have looked online for guidance in interpretation but although I can find one coin of Misr 524 AH quoting Nicol 2553, I do not have access to Nicol's book which I presume is Corpus of Fatimid Coins. Despite spending a few hours searching the Internet I cannot find the information I require.  An old catalogue of Volume 4 Oriental Coins in the British Museum provides the Arabic text, and states that apart from Mint and Date it is consistent for the years 495-520 for which they have coins - but without an English translation.  I find it difficult to even correspond the characters on the coin with the text!

I wonder if anyone could assist please by providing, or pointing me to, a translation of the obverse and reverse please?

Thank you for the help anyone can give.



Regards

Del

[Sam]

I read it 514 AH  not 524 AH in your  English presentation or 495 AH in the Arabic you attached.

Welcome to FORVM , Del


Sam

Added ; Here is the translation
**You will see in this , the word Imam , here it means the religious head of the
regim.
In general Imam means the person who leads the people in prayer.



On the right photo :

out around :


In the name of the merciful Allah this Dinar was struck in Egypt
year fourteen and five hundred. (514AH)





The inside :

Prince of believers father of Ali ( here the ruler Al- mansour ) who orders along with Allah rules.

In the middle :

The imam Al- mansour    (  here the ruler Al- mansour , he is different than the Abbasid Al- Mansour )


the photo on left :

Out line :

Mohammed is the messenger of Allah who sent him with guidance and the right religion to conquer it ( it , here refers to Islam religion ) over all religions however much the idolaters.


The inside :

No god but Allah Mohammed is the messenger of Allah

Ali Wali Allah

here Ali is the fourth of the Caliphs after the prophet
Mohammed – and Ali here is the husband of Fatimah or Fatima -

daughter of the prophet Mohammed  , which the Fatimid state  named after her.

Also the word Wali has no English translation but it means

A very very god's man.

Finally ,
In the middle
Noble
a great Value to reach  

[Sam]

In fact reading an ancient Arabic letter on an ancient coin is really difficult - unless coin is XF and up - , other coins like Roman and Greek , you have a hint
like a portrait , a god or a goddess ..

Arabic coins , not that easy and not too many here ,  know that ..
if one word is missing like numbers  .. maybe the whole coin can not be defined …

Good Day

Sam

[Sam]

I will explain why I said :

Arabic coins , not that easy and not too many here , know that ..
if one word is missing like numbers .. maybe the whole coin can not be defined …


Believe it or not every number in Arabic has 2  forms at least when you write it , its form depends on what is following of other numbers and on what we are numbering or counting .. which called la conjugaison in French. I think conjugation in English .

As example the number  4   has two forms اربع  and اربعة
and so on and on , and you can Imagine when the number is 514 , here on the right photo if you like to compare with
modern Arabic letter 514     اربع عشرة و خمسة مائة

I probably talked too much and outside your subject .. I just like members to know this.

Sam

[Derek A]

Hi Sam

Thank you very much for your reply and the details given which is so useful to me.  I have now some idea of the difficultly in translating the inscription on an Islamic coin!  I purchased the coin at auction and the year 524 AH was obviously incorrectly identified by the auction house.

I’d be grateful if you would bear with me for some follow up questions please, due to my lack of understanding of the subject.

I believe the photo on the left is the coin's obverse?  Is that correct?

I try to standardise the way I present a coin’s description and its historical context, so to be consistent in this, in the following  - written from your notes - is my understanding between what is actually on the coin and what is your explanation of the meaning correct? (sorry if my questions seem silly!)

Translation of what is actually on the coin:

Right photo (reverse?)

outer: In the name of the merciful Allah this Dinar was struck in Egypt year fourteen and five hundred. (see note 8 )

inner: Prince of believers father of Ali (see note 2) who orders along with Allah rules.

middle: The imam Al- mansour (note 3)

the photo on left: (obverse?)

outer: Mohammed is the messenger of Allah who sent him with guidance and the right religion to conquer it (note 4) over all religions however much there are idolaters.

inner: No god but Allah Mohammed is the messenger of Allah  (note 5)

middle: Noble (note 7)


notes
1, the word Imam , here it means the religious head of the regime but in general Imam means the person who leads the people in prayer.
2 here the ruler Al- mansour (Derek - assume this is Al-Amir in whose name the coin was issued?)
3 here the ruler Al- mansour , he is different than the Abbasid Al- Mansour (Derek - not sure who this is?)
4 it, here refers to Islam religion
5 Ali Wali (note 6) Allah (Derek - assume this is a note and not on the coin?) - here Ali is the fourth of the Caliphs after the prophet Mohammed – and Ali here is the husband of Fatimah or Fatima -  daughter of the prophet Mohammed  , which the Fatimid state  named after her.
6 the word Wali has no English translation but it means  A very very god's man.
7 a great Value to reach   
8 514AH

Once again thank you for your time and help

Regards

Del

[Sam]

You are very welcome ,
Here are the answers of your following questions :

About the obverse and reverse in Islamic coin , I usually call the
side which has the mint and date the reverse
So left photo is Obverse and right photo is reverse .

So in my first speech , you are right

                 Right photo is Reverse
                 Left   photo is Obverse.


However every one has his own rules . Most they use left and right
photo.

Now
1- The other Al- mansour  or Al- mansur  was an Abbasid Caliph ( 95 AH – 158 AH  ) ( in Baghdad)
I just mentioned him to you so you do not get confused .


2- Inner in obverse should be

No god but Allah Mohammed is the messenger of Allah Ali Wali Allah   ( see note 5 )

Note 5 should be

Note 5 :
The word Wali has no English translation but it means :

A very very god's man.

3- Middle :  Noble
          Gaya

So note 7 should be

Note 7 : Gaya in Arabic means a great Value to reach or a goal


4- the note 8  is only the  date of the struck  AH 514

Perhaps you like deleted it .

Sam

[Derek A]

Thank you again for all your help Sam.

I now have the information to prepare my description of the coin.

Regards

Del

[Sam]

You are very welcome , please if you need anything else , do not hesitate .

Enjoy FORVM site , the best place for Ancient Coins .

In case you need any coin there is a nice shop here , coins are %100 guaranteed :


https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=18&pos=0

Sam