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Author Topic: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)  (Read 5613 times)

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Offline NORMAN K

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I have been trying to learn how to make good pictures of coins. I have been using a microscope camera and a small point and shoot camera with a macro setting.
I have used nonglare glass and have tried putting coin on a rod above the background but only getting OK pictures.
This Vetranio coin is an example.  It look super in hand but only good in pictures.  Perhaps I am expecting too much but would appreciate any suggestions to improve.
Thanks in advance
Norm

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2014, 02:14:56 am »
Given your limited equipment your photos are already pretty good and the coins look nice. Some of the beautiful pictures you see online were snapped with top end cameras. So you can already be proud of what you've taken with a point and shoot. A couple of experiments may improve your photos a bit more

- the point and shoot probably has far better specifications than your microscope camera. These have been discussed quite a bit on Forum and the conclusion is that the cameras within are more akin to the $10 units installed within a mobile phone than to a $200 point and shoot. So I'd focus on the latter for continued experiments

- using a photographer's grey card as background (costs about $10 from photographic stores) may help with colours and ambience.

- try experimenting with lighting. For photographing difficult bronzes with glossy reflective surfaces such as the Vetriano, it can sometimes help to use diffuse, natural light, rather than artificial. We are in mid winter now and the sort of light you'll get from a north facing window (wrap up and open that window if you can) on a cloudy day is the most perfectly diffuse light you'll find short of an expensive indoor set up using those umbrella diffusers. So, make use of that wonderful free daylight

- it can sometimes oddly help to pull the camera back slightly from a frame-filling view in order that the auto settings adjust for the background (ideally grey card), rather than the software trying to process the best settings for a glossy dark green surface. Such a surface would probably not be in the auto settings repertoire of a typical point and shoot, and the settings may be defaulting to something you'd not planned. With a little more background in the picture, you may get a more natural look.

This may not work however with the coin on a rod method, as you may struggle to get the camera to focus on the coin if you've more background than coin, and if at the same time that background is more distant than the coin. However you may need to decide what's more important to you, a nice coin, or a nice background. The coin itself may photograph better with a natural in focus background. You are aiming for an out of focus background so that the coin stands out, but in achieving that your better background may come at the expense of a less good photo of the coin surface, given that a point and shoot may just not be equipped to establish a good set up for glossy dark green (whereas its on home ground when most of the frame has either a grey or a multicolored background, multicolored averaging out to grey).

An alternative to achieve the same aim is to try setting the "white balance" manually while pointing at a grey card (or at a pure white background) and then moving the coin into shot before focusing and shooting. I don't do this alternative, although some recommend it, as I've found that natural variations in ambient lighting if shooting in daylight means you'd in principle need to set up for each shot, and it is a bit fiddly. But some recommend it.

- You mention non-glare glass. This confused me. Are you taking photos through glass (don't!) or does this relate to a filter on the camera, or is it window glass in a daylight shoot, or is it background? I'm just unsure what you are referring to, though evidently the less glass involved the better.

The above are a few basically free of cost ideas that might improve your already good photos when using a cheap point and shoot camera. There's nothing like messing about and experimenting of course, and I think these pics are already good in the context of your basic camera. I'd struggle with my own higher end camera to photograph any bronze with a dark glossy patina.

Offline NORMAN K

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2014, 06:50:48 am »
The non glare glass is a background.  The coin sits on the glass and I have either a white or red sheet about 3 inches below.  I had seen this done on some of the suggestions in this forum.
The purpose is to reduce shadows when you are using a side light.  I have been using a daylight LED bulb with a sheet of white paper to difuse the light.
Since my camera did not come with any photo programs I have to use an old program installed on my computer and it works but requires a lot of steps.
I need to upgrade my camera and photo program but not sure what to do especially not wanting to spending a huge amount of money.
Your comments are  very helpful and I appreciate your imput. 
Norm

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2014, 08:17:46 am »
The non glare glass is a background.  The coin sits on the glass and I have either a white or red sheet about 3 inches below.  I had seen this done on some of the suggestions in this forum.
The purpose is to reduce shadows when you are using a side light.  I have been using a daylight LED bulb with a sheet of white paper to difuse the light.
Since my camera did not come with any photo programs I have to use an old program installed on my computer and it works but requires a lot of steps.
I need to upgrade my camera and photo program but not sure what to do especially not wanting to spending a huge amount of money.
Your comments are  very helpful and I appreciate your imput. 
Norm

OK I understand now.

Your setup is considerably more sophisticated than mine. I've no lighting other than a LED array that I use when ambient lighting isn't appropriate (e.g. in mid-summer sun and in stormy weather. Oh, and also at night!) and I've no physical setup apart from one grey card and a tripod that points down, and some levelling cubes. Still, my photos turn out well-enough, and I've taken thousands of coin photos with it, often on the move as my setup is portable. Most (90%) of my coin photos are taken using natural daylight only. I find it works well.

However I do have a good camera (a Sony NEX) with an excellent macro lens with inbuilt image stabilisation, and an image sensor that is as large as that in a DSLR camera (about ten times as large as in a compact), yet controls that are as simple as in a point and shoot. The advantage of the large-sensor camera with a dedicated macro lens, is that the colour reproduction for difficult subjects such as a shiny dark patinated bronzes will be far superior than with a compact point-and-shoot using an inbuilt macro setting.

So, given the excellent set up that you already have, I think the weakest link in the chain may now be your camera and lens. A basic large-sensor camera similar to mine (various brands) would set you back about $300, and a macro lens maybe as much again, or you could still take excellent photos with a basic zoom lens for about $100 extra instead of the macro. What I found since I got a macro lens is that the photos as-snapped are immediately ready for publication with just about no editing needed. The same camera with a basic zoom lens tended to need more editing. My prior point and shoot compact took good photos (just as yours does now) but took a great amount of photo editing. So there is a lot of time saved, and better quality image, by moving up.

Editing software: I've used Softonic Photofiltre for years. Free, and in the context of coin photography, where you are not dealing with moving images, not dealing with night time effects, no red eye to correct, it's perfectly good.

Offline NORMAN K

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2014, 09:15:20 am »
I agree with you that the camera and macro lens upgrade sound like the way to go especially if it means less photo editing.
I have not tried to use natural sun light but sounds like I need to experiment with it.
I would be willing to spend $500.00-$600 for that setup but would feel better if some combo camera/lens were recommended as I have very little experience with photography equipment.
Thanks so much for your comments and time to help.  I feel that this is one of the most helpful resources available to collectors like me.
Norm

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2014, 10:36:34 am »
I agree with you that the camera and macro lens upgrade sound like the way to go especially if it means less photo editing.
I have not tried to use natural sun light but sounds like I need to experiment with it.
I would be willing to spend $500.00-$600 for that setup but would feel better if some combo camera/lens were recommended as I have very little experience with photography equipment.
Thanks so much for your comments and time to help.  I feel that this is one of the most helpful resources available to collectors like me.
Norm

Norm

The generic camera type is called a Mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera (MILC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirrorless_interchangeable-lens_camera

All manufacturers make typically one model/range of MILC cameras, and all feature a large sensor size similar to that on a DSLR, along with a suite of lenses good enough for a DSLR, but without the reflex mirror (hence are not single lens reflex), and with controls akin to your compact. So if you can operate your compact camera, you can operate these. For example there's a large flower button for macro mode!!! A typical compact camera has a sensor about 25 square millimetre. Most of these MILC types have sensors of between 250 and 350 square millimetres. They don't have a higher pixel count, but each pixel is ten times as big, and consequently they can take the same quality image with one tenth of the light (or images that are much more colour-correct under the same lighting). The overall size is typically the same as a top-end compact. The extra size needed to fit the big sensor is compensated by not having to have motor-zoomed lenses (one switches lenses instead). So they are surprisingly small.

All camera makers have similar offerings. There is the Olympus Pen, the Panasonic Lumix, the Samsung NX, the Canon EOS and even the Leica M for collectors of Akragas dekadrachms. I suspect all give similar performance. I use a Sony NEX camera with a related E-mount macro lens. The NEX range has recently been replaced by the Sony alpha range with the bottom of the range Alpha-3000 costing about $350 with a single basic lens (zoom or macro would cost more, and significantly more, respectively).

What I suggest you do is visit a camera shop, and ask for a "bottom of the range mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera such as the Olympus Pen, Canon EOS or Sony NEX, with a separate Macro lens", and see what they offer you, at what prices. They may offer you a zoom lens instead of a macro (a zoom lens can take everything from close-up to distant, but that is an inevitable compromise over a macro which is designed for close-up). Even if you go for a zoom lens to start with, I'd check on the availability and price of a macro in case you want to trade up in future. You don't want to find that macro is not available or costs $1000 more. There may be discount lens and camera package offers. These MILC cameras are all more or less similar so value for money will be a key factor. Therefore you are better off making an enquiry in a camera shop rather than accepting a recommendation on Forum. Once you know what you want, you can always check that big Brazilian river for prices.

The reason you only need bottom-of-range is that the top-of-range models are usually distinguished by better high-definition video recording, sophisticated focusing systems that take account of large depths of field, and improved stability control systems. You don't need any of these sort of things for tripod mounted still photography of coins, so resist attempts to upsell. You just need a basic camera body and a macro lens.

Good luck
Andrew

PS I want to reiterate that the quality of images you are already producing is terrific (though you may want to adjust lighting direction on the Crispus) and your setup looks great. An enhanced camera, and a basic free editing software, and you'll be competitive with the very best photographers.

PPS, the Vetriano is a great coin.

Offline NORMAN K

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2014, 02:29:00 pm »
Andrew

I am off to a camera store to start the process and will let you know what I come up with.
Again, thank you for so much info.
Norm

PS  can you believe that the Vetranio coin was in with a batch of uncleaned coins I got about 2 years ago.  The surprising thing is I was a little rough with some of the first coins (excitement to find out what they were) but fortunately discovered this to be a Vetranio before I went too far.

I have been fortunate to find several great coins in the uncleaned batch I first recieved including a Probus RIC 809 var. https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-112667
I dont expect to get any more like this as the uncleaned I have been getting lately are not that good.
Norm

Offline SC

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2014, 12:39:26 pm »
Thanks for some very useful posts Andrew.  You have obviously done your research in this area.  Thus I have one question.  What about using a "macro extension tube" with one of the basic lenses that come with a MILC?  They are obviously not as good as a proper macro lens but how well would they do the job?

Shawn
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Offline PeterD

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2014, 12:57:07 pm »
The trouble with extension tubes is they allow you to move the camera lens closer to the subject and thus get a picture that fills the frame more, but then you are liable to be so close that you can't light the coin properly.
Peter, London

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2014, 12:58:58 pm »
Thanks for some very useful posts Andrew.  You have obviously done your research in this area.  Thus I have one question.  What about using a "macro extension tube" with one of the basic lenses that come with a MILC?  They are obviously not as good as a proper macro lens but how well would they do the job?

Shawn


Hi Shawn

I can't answer the direct question, but I can answer the reverse of the question. MILC cameras generally come with a zoom lens option in the basic kits at a price only a little more than the basic pancake lens. When I bought my camera I recall that most makers offered similar package deals. The zoom lens I used on the Sony NEX was perfectly good for taking macro images of coins, although the true macro lens is plainly better (both in terms of quality of image as well as in greater close-up capacity). Some of these MILC cameras have the electronics for image stabilisation built into the actual lens body. That means that the proprietary lenses should in principle be better than a non-proprietary lens made to fit the same housing, that might have the optics, but not the inbuilt electronics. I recall specifically reading that macro extension kits were available for the E-mount cameras (such as NEX) but that the extension kits didn't have the same electronic bells and whistles as either the zoom or the macro lenses. So, my instinct is that, lacking a macro lens, I'd prefer to use an available zoom lens built for that camera with all the inbuilt wizardry it contains, than to use a basic pancake lens to which a macro extender is attached.

Andrew

Offline NORMAN K

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2014, 01:40:45 pm »
Andrew,

I have ordered a Sony NEX  5N, 16.1 MP camera kit with 18-55 mm lens and a Sony 30 mm SEL 30M 35 Macro Lens.
I should be receiving these in a few days and am anxious to try them out.

I hope that I made the right decision on this purchase.
Norm

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2014, 02:02:07 pm »
Andrew,

I have ordered a Sony NEX  5N, 16.1 MP camera kit with 18-55 mm lens and a Sony 30 mm SEL 30M 35 Macro Lens.
I should be receiving these in a few days and am anxious to try them out.

I hope that I made the right decision on this purchase.
Norm

Sounds good Norm, that's about exactly what I use. I attempted to give a balanced view across the various available brands, but perhaps it's no surprise that you went with another Forum member's experience. I recall that there's at least one other frequent Forum contributor who uses the exact same setup. I hope you got a good price. I suspect the macro lens was the priciest bit.

Offline NORMAN K

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2015, 02:32:52 pm »
New camera and macro lens picture.
This is my first attempt to take pictures with my new camera setup.  (Sony NEX 5NK & Sony E 3.5/30 Macro lens.)
This picture was taken with natural light though not from north window thus the lighting is visible from that direction.  I was about 3" from the coin.  I put a blue cloth under the non glare glass because with the bright white the coin was too dark.  I know some improvements can be made but its a more natural picture than the point and shoot camera.
One thing that bothers me is my camera will change the orientation of the picture  at random so I have to rotate it.

Offline areich

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2015, 02:56:23 pm »
It's a nice picture though it seems to have a strong blue tint. This can be corrected by using the manual white balance or by correcting afterwards.
Andreas Reich

Offline NORMAN K

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2015, 09:27:16 pm »
Areich,
Is the blue you are talking about the background?  I used a blue cloth under the coin which may be what you are seeing.
I must admit that after looking at some of your pictures you have posted  are amazing so I would certainly respect your opinion.
Thanks,
Norm

Offline Carausius

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2015, 11:19:44 pm »
Norman:

Your camera and lens are doing a fine job.  I think you should try experimenting with different lighting arrangements.  Different coins look best in different lighting.  I find that darkly patinated coins benefit from light directed at an angle that accentuates contrast between devices and surfaces. Your photo shows a bit of this effect on the leading edge of the emperor's face on the obverse and on the right edge of the figure on the reverse.  In your case, however, the lighting angle looks too severe, so only a small portion of the devices are contrasted.  If you move the lighting source to a slightly higher point, the photo should improve.  Of course, this is easier to control with artificial light.  I know that you took this photo with natural light.  If you prefer natural light, then experiment photographing at different times of day, with the sun at different angles. Good luck.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2015, 12:54:04 am »
I know I encouraged you to try natural light
- a proper grey card as background helps a lot to get the colour right, without having to set white balance per shot in variable conditions
- midwinter sun may require that the coin be photographed with no intervening window which can produce a blue cast in weak light, and near midday (though I still advocate cloudy conditions or not in any event with direct sunlight on the surface of the coin)
- if that's not practicable you can maybe try revert to the good lighting rig you showed us earlier

The recent photos I showed on Forum of my coins in their red trays were all taken December 22nd in daylight using your exact camera setup. Colours look natural and bronzes are bright and clear. So with experimenting you'll get good results. Hidden behind many good photos on Forum is a great deal of trial and error.

Offline areich

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2015, 09:10:12 am »
That's why I wrote "seems". Since the coin is near black, I couldn't be sure. Sometimes people have monitors that are not properly calibrated, so they don't notice their pictures are not true to the coin's colour. This picture is probably as good as it gets, black coins are often hard to photograph. I would reduce the size and maybe gently sharpen the image.
Andreas Reich

Offline NORMAN K

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2015, 10:37:58 am »
Thanks to all who commented.  It looks like I have a lot of experimenting to do. Getting familiar with my new camera and lens will take some time.
I have seen many different lighting setups and ways to place the coins so I will have to decide what works best for me.
Again thanks.
Norm

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2015, 03:33:57 pm »
The lighting on the coin photo is not consistent with the set up shown.  A diffused light source like shown in that photo should give a much softer image of the coin.  Here it looks like a direct light from a low angle was used.  Low angle light will pick up barely raised detail like you see on worn out medieval deniers but is too harsh IMHO to use on a decent ancient.  After many experiments with lights, I decided there is no such thing as a good light for all uses and usually end up shooting difficult coins several times before I give up and accept the result.  High grade denarii with relatively matte surfaces (i.e. not polished) are relatively easy while glossy black bronzes and polished high relief silver gives me headaches.  I'm currently using a daylight balance Ottlight for most things but still fall back to a ringlight for some things that fail to respond.

It looks like I have a lot of experimenting to do. Getting familiar with my new camera and lens will take some time.
I have seen many different lighting setups and ways to place the coins so I will have to decide what works best for me.

The above comment is exactly what is required to do a good job with coin photography.  I have never seen an image that owed much to the equipment used (and I have used  8x10 view cameras for landscapes) but regularly see images that are good or bad according to the familiarity of the user with the camera.  Please post results here as you learn what works best for you.

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2015, 04:03:18 pm »
A constand headache for me is the lack of space and therefore the fact that I use the same lamps for photography as for looking at coins. So I might have a setup that gives good results for all coins, as I don't like to spend 10 minutes per coin but It may take a while to find that setup again, the same position of the lights etc.
Andreas Reich

Offline NORMAN K

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2015, 09:03:21 pm »
Just a photo of an Arcadius coin (13.5 mm )I got from forum.  I backed of the camera a little and used a diffused 5000k lamp.
I thought it turned out pretty nice, at least I am happy with it.  Still experimenting.
Norm

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2015, 09:12:29 pm »
 +++ Very nice photo!  I think that's a great improvement.  Keep experimenting until you find the setup that yields the best result.  Then, you'll find you need a new arrangement for the next coin! 

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2015, 09:18:32 pm »
The reverse looks a bit sharper than the obverse.  Is this focus or camera motion/vibration?  Both sides seem lighted a bit more on the right edge than on the left which could be balanced with a small reflector.  I'd say the reverse is well done but the portrait might benefit from the light angle being raised just a bit.   Coins this small are not the easiest.    Overall, good work.

Offline NORMAN K

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Re: Camera /Microscrope camera lighting? ( New Camera and Macro added)
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2015, 11:09:54 am »
I agree  the reverse seemed a little blurred.  I was having some movement of the box so I stabilized the setup and added a reflector.
I am including a picture of the setup and the Arcadius coin shot with it to see if there is any improvement.
Norm

 

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