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Author Topic: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)  (Read 3425 times)

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« on: November 28, 2014, 07:50:21 pm »
On December 11th 1669 Caterina Sevasto, of an illustrious and powerful Greek family of Candia, Crete, wife of Pietro Zeno, a doctor of medicine, gave birth to a son, Apostolo Zeno, in Venice. Apostolo grew into a great academic and classicist. In 1691 he was among the founders of the Accademia degli Animosi. In 1695, he composed his first libretto, Gli inganni felici, which obtained great success, making him a fashionable librettist. From 1705, he worked with Pietro Pariati, keeping the theatrical scenes for himself and leaving to Pariati the composition of the libretti. He began work as a literary journalist for the Galleria di Minerva, also taking upon executive responsibilities, but distanced himself when he realized that he had not succeeded in making the impact upon the publication that he intended. In the end he described it as an idiocy. In 1710 together with Scipione Maffei, Antonio Vallisneri and his brother, Pier Caterino Zeno, he founded the Giornale de' letterati d'Italia, maintaining that it was necessary that "Italians themselves make their own newspaper... revealing that good sense, erudition and ingenuity never were lacking among us, and now more than ever are they flourishing." The tri-monthly publication had prestigious contributors such as Scipione Maffei, Antonio Vallisneri, Eustachio Manfredi, Ludovico Antonio Muratori, Giovanni Battista Morgagni, Giovan Battista Vico, Bernardino Ramazzini. Motivated above all by the desire to improve Italian learning, it enjoyed considerable success. When Apostolo Zeno was called to duty as poet laureate to the imperial court of Vienna in 1718, his brother, Pier Caterino took over the direction until 1732, publishing the periodical annually. Apostolo remained in Vienna until 1729, at which point he was replaced by Pietro Metastasio. He returned to Venice, dedicating himself to works of erudition and to coin-collecting. Apostolo lived to age 81. Three years before his death, in 1747, he donated his coin collection to the Monastery of Saint Florian, an Augustinian monastery in the town of Sankt Florian, Austria. Founded in the early ninth century, and later refounded by Augustinians in the eleventh century, St. Florian is the largest monastery in Upper Austria, and rivals Melk Abbey and Klosterneuburg Monastery as among the most impressive examples of Baroque architecture in Austria. The monastery is dedicated to Saint Florian, whose fourth century grave lies beneath the monastery. The coin collection remained undisturbed at the monastery for two hundred years, until In January 1941 the premises were taken over by the Gestapo and the monks were expelled. From 1942 the Reichsrundfunkgesellschaft ("Radio Society of the Third Reich") was based here under its general director Heinrich Glasmeier. The canons were able to return after the end of the war, but in much reduced circumstances they made the difficult decision to sell the coin collection of Apostolo Zeno, in a series of Dorotheum sales in Vienna between 1955 and 1957. At the time, and still so far as I know today, it was the oldest securely provenance coin collection ever offered, beating by more than a hundred years the Duke of Northumberland collection sold by Sotheby's in 1982 and dating from the early to mid 19th century. One of the attendees at that sale was a French coin collector, who is still with us but no longer collecting, because in late November 2014 his remarkable collection of old-provenance coins, most dating from sales in the 1930s to 1950s, was sold in Lyon, France. I attach a copy of the collector's receipt from the 1956 Apostolo Zeno sale. Included in the list of purchases, as lot 2955, and illustrated in enlargement in the 1956 sale was a very fine denarius of Octavian with his youthful head and the symbols of pontificate on the reverse, a coin that would have been acquired by Apostolo Zeno perhaps around 1730. This coin, pictured below, will now be joining my collection.

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2014, 08:20:24 pm »
Hi Andrew,

Wow!!! That's an interesting story.

I love that coin on so many levels. It's a coin of Octavian/Augustus, which I love to collect. It's an old provenance coin with a fascinating history. It once belonged to an old noble (and storied) Greek/Italian family. Being of Italian descent, I love the "Italian connection" aspect of it. It sat in a monastery for over 200 years. World War II affected its history and probably played a large part in it being sold and now being in a private collection. If it wasn't for the war, it might still be in the monastery. They are also lucky that the Gestapo didn't steal the coin collection.

In fact, I'd offer to buy it from you if I didn't already have one. :) I bought a very nice example of this issue several years ago from a large and famous German auction house.

How do find out all of this interesting background information about your coins? And how do you find these coins/auctions? I very rarely, if ever, see this much information about a coin being printed by the dealers and auction houses that I deal with. And I deal with numerous auction houses and dealers in Europe.

Meepzorp

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2014, 08:42:03 pm »
Quote from: Meepzorp on November 28, 2014, 08:20:24 pm
.

How do find out all of this interesting background information about your coins? And how do you find these coins/auctions? I very rarely, if ever, see this much information about a coin being printed by the dealers and auction houses that I deal with. And I deal with numerous auction houses and dealers in Europe.

Meepzorp

Research of course. In this specific case, the catalogue had the words "Dorotheum Apostolo Zeno 1956 sale lot 2955". A collector who had access to any of three information sources (a) Clain Steffanelli (b) John Spring or (c) my own webpage about auction catalogues would know the Zeno sale was important. Googling the name Apostolo Zeno gives directly or indirectly most of the content I wrote. Seeing a sale catalogue that includes darkly patinated coins and mentions, aside from the collectors Zeno purchases, various other sales from the 1930s to 1950s made me realise this was an important collection. I contacted the auctioneer in advance and asked that he try seek more provenances, via tickets or invoices. He did, and sent me a longer list of provenances before the sale (many not mentioned in the printed catalogue) and a copy of the 1950s invoice afterwards. Prior to the sale I kept as quiet possible about it, and added a significant old pedigree premium to my bids. There were some spectacular rarities at the auction that fetched tens of thousands of euros per coin, but in such an environment a less spectacular but still terrific coin can slip by cheaply. I also looks especially close at dark patinated coin pics to see if an EF gem might lie beneath. In the end I won eight coins, several with very old provenances, and all with beautifully toned surfaces and good metal, at reasonable prices. I did my homework and earned some great coins as reward.

Offline carthago

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2014, 09:02:16 pm »
Andrew - wonderful write up and coin.  Congratulations!  

The Zeno sale had always puzzled me as many of them  look harshly cleaned somewhat recently and don't look like several century's of toning.  Certainly not several hundred years of cabinet tone on many.  This latest group that came to market don't look to have toned much in 70 years, but the original catalogue pictures weren't great.  Did you look at these coins in person?  For instance, the Cornelius Lentulus Spinther.  What does the surfaces of these coins look like?

I stayed away from the auction because I didn't have anyone to inspect the coins and I hear Exporting is difficult from France.  I would liked to have bid on your coin but am glad I didnt. You wear it well!

Enjoy.

C


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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2014, 10:05:14 pm »
Andrew what a wonder acquisition! You never cease to amaze me.

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2014, 06:49:22 am »
Quote from: labienus on November 29, 2014, 06:05:54 am
Hi, Andrew
I did also attend the sale (with a lot of Zeno pedigrees) on Thursday. Results were more mitigated in my opinion. Strong prices (inc. almost "absurd") for the trendy/high end stuff (i.e the 460 !!!! or, more "splendidly" for the Arrius Secundus) but low to very low prices for more classic/"commoditized" denarii.
Segmentation is at work, I guess : high end/trendy stuff somewhere moving to or already in bubble-type prices and the remaining (irrespectively from its intrinsic qualities)..... with almost no demand, somewhere irrespectively of the pricing or at deflationnary levels.
To me, the market as we knew it is dislocated/broken and this is strongly due to the way auctions became from the origins ... at the expense of the more classic dealers (and their relationship with clients). Unfortunately, RRC inc. Imperatorial is one of the hot spots of this trend.
As said, I'm almost off from the auctions' world (just rarely looking for inefficiencies if any) and back to the more traditional work with a handful of dealers. Certainly less sexy but I definitely don't like the way most numismatics trends move.
Best wishes for your sale.
Pierre

BTW, did you get something on Thursday ?

There is a separate thread on the Apostolo Zeno provenance and the Monastery Saint Florian here, here, so I replied on the correct thread:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=99079

As you'll see I will soon have on splendid Apostolo Zeno Octavian denarius, with a provenance from the early 1700s.

Offline labienus

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2014, 08:06:50 am »
Quote from: carthago on November 28, 2014, 09:02:16 pm
Andrew - wonderful write up and coin.  Congratulations!  

The Zeno sale had always puzzled me as many of them  look harshly cleaned somewhat recently and don't look like several century's of toning.  Certainly not several hundred years of cabinet tone on many.  This latest group that came to market don't look to have toned much in 70 years, but the original catalogue pictures weren't great.  Did you look at these coins in person?  For instance, the Cornelius Lentulus Spinther.  What does the surfaces of these coins look like?

I stayed away from the auction because I didn't have anyone to inspect the coins and I hear Exporting is difficult from France.  I would liked to have bid on your coin but am glad I didnt. You wear it well!

Enjoy.

C



Hi, Chris

1/ was also perplexed by the Lentulus Spinther. Although not obsessed by weight, its low one (3.5 grs) didn't help.
2/ this collection had been made by a person (who is currently in a very bad health condition) mostly in the 50s.
3/ Export from France is :
- easy for coins below 1500 euros. No regulations (except your customs) and the risks linked to transport.
- over 1500 euros, you have to ask for an export certificate and - for outside the European Union - an additional  export license. Although people - at the Ministry of Culture - are individually helpful (I tried), the system is absurdly rigid. All in (at least in my case), 1,5 month to get the documents.
4/ I was much less successful than Andrew. Just got one RRC and an Imperial.

Best
Pierre

Offline labienus

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2014, 08:08:58 am »
Quote from: labienus on November 29, 2014, 06:05:54 am
Hi, Andrew
I did also attend the sale (with a lot of Zeno pedigrees) on Thursday. Results were more mitigated in my opinion. Strong prices (inc. almost "absurd") for the trendy/high end stuff (i.e the 460 !!!! or, more "splendidly" for the Arrius Secundus) but low to very low prices for more classic/"commoditized" denarii.
Segmentation is at work, I guess : high end/trendy stuff somewhere moving to or already in bubble-type prices and the remaining (irrespectively from its intrinsic qualities)..... with almost no demand, somewhere irrespectively of the pricing or at deflationnary levels.
To me, the market as we knew it is dislocated/broken and this is strongly due to the way auctions became from the origins ... at the expense of the more classic dealers (and their relationship with clients). Unfortunately, RRC inc. Imperatorial is one of the hot spots of this trend.
As said, I'm almost off from the auctions' world (just rarely looking for inefficiencies if any) and back to the more traditional work with a handful of dealers. Certainly less sexy but I definitely don't like the way most numismatics trends move.
Best wishes for your sale.
Pierre

BTW, did you get something on Thursday ?

There is a separate thread on the Apostolo Zeno provenance and the Monastery Saint Florian here, here, so I replied on the correct thread:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=99079

As you'll see I will soon have on splendid Apostolo Zeno Octavian denarius, with a provenance from the early 1700s.

Very lovely Octavian portrait, Andrew.
Sincere congrats.



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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2014, 08:35:03 am »
What an acquisition, fascinating!

Jochen

Offline carthago

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2014, 09:08:04 am »
Quote from: labienus on November 29, 2014, 08:06:50 am
3/ Export from France is :
- easy for coins below 1500 euros. No regulations (except your customs) and the risks linked to transport.
- over 1500 euros, you have to ask for an export certificate and - for outside the European Union - an additional  export license. Although people - at the Ministry of Culture - are individually helpful (I tried), the system is absurdly rigid. All in (at least in my case), 1,5 month to get the documents.

Best
Pierre

Thanks for the info on this Pierre. I clearly missed an opportunity to acquire some interesting coins.  Oh well, the chase will continue... 

C

Offline dafnis

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2014, 10:50:19 am »
That's a true beauty, and a wonderful coin! Congrats, Andrew!!

I was also successful at this auction, just one coin though, but very happy about it since it was also an ex-Zeno one.

Obv/ Laureate and draped bust of Venus r.; SC behind.
Rev/ P CRASSVS MF, femenine figure guiding a horse l., holding spear; at her feet, shield and cuirass.

Denarius, Ag, 4.09g
Moneyer: P. Licinius Crassus M.f.
Mint: Rome, 55 BC
RRC 430/1 - BMCRR Rome 3901 - Syd. 929 - RSC Licinia 18
ex-Bremens-Belleville, november 2014, lot 363 (ex-St. Florian monastery, Dorotheum, june 1956, lot 2764 / ex. Apostolo Zeno, 18th c.)

One thing that drove me crazy about this sale, and you can tell it was not a regular coin auction house, is that it was held in two consecutive days... I did register on what I thought was the whole auction a few days earlier and everything went fine, bidding on a few lots on day 1 and managing to get the above coin.
My surprise was when trying to access the auction the following day. While I could follow it live, I was not able to bid! You had to register for both days separately, which I read nowhere, nor was it communicated when I got the acceptance for what I now know was only the first day. So I was left that whole afternoon musing over my misfortune, while following the auction with Caesar's, Octavian's and the whole empire parading before me, and to add injury to insult, some very nice numismatic books and old auction catalogues that were sold in many cases for a fraction of their usual retail/auction price... calling them and e-mailing did not help, the damage was done... oh well!


Offline TIF

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2014, 11:43:02 am »
Wow, that's quite a coin and quite a provenance!  I'm envious :)

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2014, 12:22:33 pm »
Here´s my Apostolo Zeno.
Rather common RR denarius of Dictator Sulla my favorite   ....... of Greeks and roman  plebeians.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2014, 02:41:24 pm »
It seems that the joy in this sale was well shared with some superb value old pedigree coins shown on this thread (benito's Sulla and my Octavian were pretty fair, but dafnis' Crassus was absolutely extraordinarily remarkable), and some superbly pricy old provenance coins picked up by others. I'm glad that there was such a mix of results. I considered carefully whether to bid on both the coin of Benito and that of dafnis, and in the end reckoned it would have seemed selfish as I had decent examples of both types. The Sulla is on a remarkably broad flan. This was a collection that will go down in history as one of the classics of the Roman Republic.

Offline AncientJoe

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2014, 03:27:15 pm »
As a musician myself, an Apostolo Zeno pedigree has always been on my wantlist. I saw this auction when it was posted and was so underwhelmed by the quality of photographs in the Greek section that I didn't bother looking at the RRs. I appreciate whitespace from an aesthetic design perspective, but it is absolutely not needed in coin auction photographs!

Kudos to everyone here who won coins from this sale - in looking through the prices realized, there are many that look inexpensive still at this point.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2014, 05:36:38 pm »
I was also successful at this auction, just one coin though, but very happy about it since it was also an ex-Zeno one.

Obv/ Laureate and draped bust of Venus r.; SC behind.
Rev/ P CRASSVS MF, femenine figure guiding a horse l., holding spear; at her feet, shield and cuirass.

Denarius, Ag, 4.09g
Moneyer: P. Licinius Crassus M.f.
Mint: Rome, 55 BC
RRC 430/1 - BMCRR Rome 3901 - Syd. 929 - RSC Licinia 18
ex-Bremens-Belleville, november 2014, lot 363 (ex-St. Florian monastery, Dorotheum, june 1956, lot 2764 / ex. Apostolo Zeno, 18th c.)


I was in a general discussion involving other coin collectors and sellers today. Amazement was expressed regarding the above coin, in the context of its provenance. General feeling was that it might easily have sold for five times what you paid, and not looked expensive at that five times greater price. It was really an astonishingly great acquisition. I'm not sure you realise how lucky you were that someone didn't put a minimum one thousand down for the pedigree irrespective of the actual coin, and then some on top for the coin. Very well done, but luck may have played a part unless you had a hefty proxy bid that was reduced. One can't rely only on luck  :)

Offline dafnis

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 09:10:28 am »
I've thought about that over the last few days, Andrew. I think there were a couple of points that helped that luck:
- The auction, although advertised in one of the major numismatic auction portals, was not very much known. Comments from the above posts also confirm that.
- The lot right before, while without such a major provenance as mine, was exactly the same coin in far better condition, and reached a final price more attuned to your comments above.

I had actually not set up a higher proxy. I had lost a couple of earlier coins in the same session, and that was the last one for the day. Was surprised when nobody bid after my first bid online. Not that I'm complaining  ;)

It was also probably Luck paying me back after I lost a Vitellius denarius also ex-Zeno at Gemini VIII in 2011. It was assigned to me initially, but later on found that a room bidder had apparently bid right before me the same amount, so I lost it after thinking it mine...

On general terms I found a good number of coins sold in the Bremens auction for way less than regular average on more known (and attended) auction houses. This was also the same on session two, the one I could not bid in since had not registered separately for. There was a Vaillant book, the one about the Empire (Paris, 1695) selling for 60€  :o or the full 4 vols. of the Niggeler collection for 20€  :o :o
Even the higher-paid coins, given provenances, were "cheap". I recall an amazing Caesar ex-Zeno selling for 18,000 € - at any other auction would have easily reached double that.

Offline carthago

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Apostolo Zeno - Coin surface conditions??
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2014, 08:07:52 pm »
I have the original auction catalogue and have often wondered about the surface condition of the coins, but the pictures in the 1956 original catalogue aren't great.   The most recent photos show many of the Zeno hoard still look harshly cleaned yet I would expect them to tone more over the past 58 years, not to 250!  Also, many of the other "non-Zeno" coins had a similar cleaned look.  Strange for such an old collection.  Is it photography or true condition?

Did anyone here attend the auction and view the Roman Republican coins in person?  Are these as cleaned as they look?  I didn't bid on any because I didn't have someone to view them among other reasons.  It would be good to know for the future as they come back up for sale and if I have to bid "blind" on them. 

Some examples of what I'm talking about below.  I mean, they are beautiful coins with a great pedigree but what are these surfaces like in hand???  Any in person accounts would be appreciated. 

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2014, 11:37:07 pm »
I think they've been cleaned somewhat by the most recent collector but not in recent decades. Comparing the 1956 catalogue to today I see areas which looked encrusted with deposits then and now the same areas looking dark but fewer deposits. Possibly with an expert new clean today issues such as the dark areas one sees on the Sulla might be fixed. This as a generic issue doesn't worry me though. There's not much upside to a coin already cleaned within an inch of its life, and on a speculative basis there were certainly many good buys in this old pedigree event. I understand why one mightn't want to take a risk on a €20k coin. So buy a ticket and fly. Or one could have phoned and asked - I received a thoughtful email with additional comments on two items in my Sixbid list from the expert, which caused me to have another look at those coins. I'd planned on flying myself but had to cancel at the last minutes but nevertheless got eight, so far as I can tell, lovely problem free coins, all at decent prices, some with old pedigrees discovered and others yet to discover. I often gamble on unknown factors, and my experience with even the best advisors in the world is that I'd prefer to rely on my own judgement, as only I know what compromises I'm willing to make and in general I've got a clearer understanding of how a given issue is struck and what style it comes in than a general expert. For coins such as the Livineia, or the Caesar Mussidia that you referred to, I'd just take the risk and use gut feeling. In the worst case you could flip them. I would have passed on the Sepullia. Best cases are some marvellous coins heavily discounted due to needing some cleaning. I suspect that the Sulla with an amazing portrait but dark patches was worth a gamble. The Lentulus Spinther with black encrustation which might hide corrosion or perfect surfaces much more so, and that's a coin I'd have wanted to see in hand before a high bid. But I'd have risked a low bid except that I already have a wonderful example.

So long as I'm running at 51% or better in the long term, I do take risks on coins not inspected by me. I buy some duds and I also buy great coins inexpensively.

Offline jmuona

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2014, 10:46:00 am »
Yes, I think they have been cleaned, as my Zeno collection Otho, obtained from a Gemini sale:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=974&pos=54
looks like it has not been touched for ages.
s.
Jyrki Muona

Offline carthago

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2014, 12:20:29 am »
I think they've been cleaned somewhat by the most recent collector but not in recent decades. Comparing the 1956 catalogue to today I see areas which looked encrusted with deposits then and now the same areas looking dark but fewer deposits. Possibly with an expert new clean today issues such as the dark areas one sees on the Sulla might be fixed. This as a generic issue doesn't worry me though. There's not much upside to a coin already cleaned within an inch of its life, and on a speculative basis there were certainly many good buys in this old pedigree event. I understand why one mightn't want to take a risk on a €20k coin. So buy a ticket and fly. Or one could have phoned and asked - I received a thoughtful email with additional comments on two items in my Sixbid list from the expert, which caused me to have another look at those coins. I'd planned on flying myself but had to cancel at the last minutes but nevertheless got eight, so far as I can tell, lovely problem free coins, all at decent prices, some with old pedigrees discovered and others yet to discover. I often gamble on unknown factors, and my experience with even the best advisors in the world is that I'd prefer to rely on my own judgement, as only I know what compromises I'm willing to make and in general I've got a clearer understanding of how a given issue is struck and what style it comes in than a general expert. For coins such as the Livineia, or the Caesar Mussidia that you referred to, I'd just take the risk and use gut feeling. In the worst case you could flip them. I would have passed on the Sepullia. Best cases are some marvellous coins heavily discounted due to needing some cleaning. I suspect that the Sulla with an amazing portrait but dark patches was worth a gamble. The Lentulus Spinther with black encrustation which might hide corrosion or perfect surfaces much more so, and that's a coin I'd have wanted to see in hand before a high bid. But I'd have risked a low bid except that I already have a wonderful example.

So long as I'm running at 51% or better in the long term, I do take risks on coins not inspected by me. I buy some duds and I also buy great coins inexpensively.

Flying to Europe for auctions isn't really an option for me today so I like to have someone I trust give an in-hand account of the coin before I bid.  Pictures are often deceiving, thus my question regarding the surface conditions of the Zeno coins in general because I don't trust what I'm seeing in the pictures. 

I'm at the San Franscisco Historical Bourse tonight consigning auction mistakes I made this year bidding blind.  This show gives me a great opportunity to review the NYINC auctions as well as pick over the dealers' stock ahead of the Russians and Europeans in NY in a few weeks.   ;D

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2014, 09:38:15 am »
Quote from: carthago on December 12, 2014, 12:20:29 am
I'm at the San Franscisco Historical Bourse tonight consigning auction mistakes I made this year bidding blind.  This show gives me a great opportunity to review the NYINC auctions as well as pick over the dealers' stock ahead of the Russians and Europeans in NY in a few weeks.   ;D

Selling acquisition mistakes is I suspect just part-and-parcel of collecting. I've sold a thousand coins in the last five years or so. Some were beautiful coins that I replaced with more beautiful coins, some were worn rarities that I feel no longer able to offer a good home to and are better being loved by another collector, but some were just mistaken acquisition. Value for money is a key driver in my collecting process, but we all have different views on "value". So far I've not found an expert who has exactly the same sense of what makes a coin desirable or not. We all love FDC coins, but as we can't all have them, compromises must be made. In general I'm relying more on my own views of a photo than on the views of a person holding the coin, as it's pretty much impossible to explain what compromises I am willing to make and those I'm not willing.

Sometimes I'll buy a nice coin that doesn't quite meet my criteria and then it's best to pass it on to another collector who likes different aspects of a coin, whether patina, strikes, styles, or surfaces. For example I don't object to external damage or flat strikes that affect areas I think are less important to the integrity of the design, and my preference with bronzes is for coppery brown-black patinas and not for light green. It just becomes so personal that no one can truly act for me, especially as I'll accept a myriad of compromises but balk at others. Then, on my reallocated coins, some collectors love light green patinas or prefer sharpness to completeness. So everyone is happier when I move a coin on. Especially as I'm less bothered about what I sell for, so good value is abundant.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2014, 09:19:54 am »
I've picked up my Zeno and seven other pedigreed coins from the mid 20th century collection of Monseiur E. (with earlier provenances back to the 16th century). All have perfect surfaces, none show any signs of cleaning damage, all have iridescent toning far better than shown in the photos, and the condition of wear of each is as per the catalogue (ranging from SUP+ = GEF to TTB+ = NEF) or a grade-fraction higher and lower. It seems the photography accentuated colour variations so as to look like defects.

Because reservations and uncertainties were expressed about the coin surfaces and their photography, and as no-one here seems to have attended the event in person, I thought I'd give some comments on my own pieces.

I'm looking at one coin right now, the sale pic below. The obverse is sharp and unblemished, Cupid for example is perfectly sharp, and the cheek looks perfectly smooth, with the apparent minor dings only visible with difficulty if you tilt the coin so light is almost parallel to the surface; there's gold patination around the devices and blue patina in the field; The dark points behind the bun aren't visible on the coin, so may just be shadows. The reverse is evenly worn with a lot of detail such as Vercingetorix' face and the details on the shield, again with gold toning around the devices and blue in the field. I'd grade this aEF/GVF with extra credit for good surfaces and attractive toning and for a good pedigree.

The Didia shown below it simply does not have the blotchy patina suggested by the picture. The patina is a smooth even dark brown, and both sides are overall less dark than the photo. There's minor wear to the visor edge and wing on obverse but the two monograms are sharp and surfaces are smooth. The reverse is better with all the detail you can see, as well as the flowing cloak which is hidden on the photo, and the fine details of the flail-end and the club held by the other gladiator perfectly clear and sharp. Toning is lighter than the obverse with a uniform golden-dark brown with usual golden accents around devices. I'd grade this aEF/EF with extra credit for good surfaces and even toning, and for a good pedigree.

The third coin is a quadrigatus and once again toning is far superior to the sale pic. The reverse appears mint state, absolutely sharp with not the slightest wear even at the highest points and golden reflective toning throughout. Small details such as Victory have golden highlights around the devices that obscure its clarity, but is sharp and clear in hand. The obverse also appears sharp in all areas excepting the edge hair, but with coin in hand it seems this is as struck and isn't in fact wear. There's a tiny ding on the left chin, old and long since repatinated. Even light brown toning with golden highlights and no hint of the blotchiness or apparent darks spots seen in the sale pic. I'd grade this GEF (noting the tiny chin ding) again extra credit for good surfaces and beautiful toning, and for a good pedigree.

The other five coins I won have similar assessments. So if you won some, you need not worry too much.

Offline carthago

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Re: Apostolo Zeno's Denarius of Octavian (now mine)
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2014, 02:21:52 pm »
Nice coins Andrew.  Thanks for your detailed in hand assessment.  Pictures are sometimes very misleading.  I'm glad they are in great shape in person.  I had my eye on that Didia.

I picked up a few coins in San Fran, but nothing noteworthy.  Got to view some of the auctions ahead of NY which was nice. 

 

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