Is this a countermark of Cleopatra - Help would be appreciated

[coldavo]

Hi all,

I have this coin on its way to my collection: Antioch, Syria, AE22, diademed head of Zeus right with countermark/ Zeus seated left. Not the best of condition but acceptable to me.

To me the countermark (and the coin) looks very similar to the first entry in Wildwinds under Cleopatra. I would appreciate advice as to whether it ties up with Cleo. I have seen some illustrations of Cleopatra counterstamps in a more circular frame but think that I have seen oval ones similar to this?

All the best,
Col

[PtolemAE]

Hi all,

I have this coin on its way to my collection: Antioch, Syria, AE22, diademed head of Zeus right with countermark/ Zeus seated left. Not the best of condition but acceptable to me.

To me the countermark (and the coin) looks very similar to the first entry in Wildwinds under Cleopatra. I would appreciate advice as to whether it ties up with Cleo. I have seen some illustrations of Cleopatra counterstamps in a more circular frame but think that I have seen oval ones similar to this?

All the best,
Col

It would be interesting to know if anything other than the seller's interpretation of the countermark (noted in the listing as contrary to the RPC description) links it to Cleopatra.  In any case you got a nice coin that is similar to the one shown on Wildwinds.  If you want a Cleopatra bronze coin you can be sure about, just get one that has her name right on it.  Cleo wasn't shy about putting her own name right out there for all to see on her bronze coins.  They're so popular that they are pricey in good condition but they are quite common.

PtolemAE

[Matt Kreuzer]

Col,

Yes, that countermark is the same as the Wildwinds countermark.  It is the most common countermark on that denomination of Antioch.  I believe it is Cleopatra VII.  Coins such as this were likely available to the forces of Cleopatra, perhaps at about the time that the Antioch Cleopatra and Antony tetradrachms were struck.

Older references including RPC identify the countermark as Apollo or probably Apollo.
In my book on the coins of Cleopatra, I mention this countermark is Cleopatra.  In his book on the coins of Syria, McAlee says the same thing.
However, in his ANS review of McAlee's book, Oliver Hoover denies it is Cleopatra.  He states that there is no diadem.  However, nicer examples do show a diadem.

[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

At this point, it is fair to say that experts disagree.  Your coin is that countermark.  What a find!

Matt Kreuzer

Hi all,

I have this coin on its way to my collection: Antioch, Syria, AE22, diademed head of Zeus right with countermark/ Zeus seated left. Not the best of condition but acceptable to me.

To me the countermark (and the coin) looks very similar to the first entry in Wildwinds under Cleopatra. I would appreciate advice as to whether it ties up with Cleo. I have seen some illustrations of Cleopatra counterstamps in a more circular frame but think that I have seen oval ones similar to this?

All the best,
Col

It would be interesting to know if anything other than the seller's interpretation of the countermark (noted in the listing as contrary to the RPC description) links it to Cleopatra.  In any case you got a nice coin that is similar to the one shown on Wildwinds.  If you want a Cleopatra bronze coin you can be sure about, just get one that has her name right on it.  Cleo wasn't shy about putting her own name right out there for all to see on her bronze coins.  They're so popular that they are pricey in good condition but they are quite common.

PtolemAE

[PtolemAE]

Col,

Yes, that countermark is the same as the Wildwinds countermark.  It is the most common countermark on that denomination of Antioch.  I believe it is Cleopatra VII.  Coins such as this were likely available to the forces of Cleopatra, perhaps at about the time that the Antioch Cleopatra and Antony tetradrachms were struck.

Older references including RPC identify the countermark as Apollo or probably Apollo.
In my book on the coins of Cleopatra, I mention this countermark is Cleopatra.  In his book on the coins of Syria, McAlee says the same thing.
However, in his ANS review of McAlee's book, Oliver Hoover denies it is Cleopatra.  He states that there is no diadem.  However, nicer examples do show a diadem.

[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

At this point, it is fair to say that experts disagree.  Your coin is that countermark.  What a find!

Matt Kreuzer

Recognizing a person in a tiny countermark is maybe too much to ask.  Always tempting to tie Cleopatra.  As Matt says, the identity of this countermark seems to be 'in the eye of the beholder'.  

PtolemAE

[coldavo]

Hi PtolemAE and Matt,

Thank you both very much for your information. As mentioned before, I find it marvelous to be able to get expert help on matters in this area.

I've noted that both Matt Kreuzer in his book "The coinage System of Cleopatra VII, Marc Antony and Augustus in  Cyprus" and Richard McAlee in his book "The Coins of Roman Antioch" give the opinion, and their reasons, that the head in the counterstamp is that of Cleopatra.

From Wildwinds comes the comment "RPC notes this countermark as "Head of Apollo", but certainly a female is intended. The bun behind the head, and the piece of hair dangling behind the neck are similar to portrait coins of Cleopatra from Chalkis, Cyprus
and the tetradrachms from Syria."

Whereas Hoover, in his critique on Richard McAlee's book, says "the head on the countermark lacks any features that can clearly identify it as that of the last Ptolemaic queen. The former lacks the typical 'melon' hairstyle or the prominent diadem" (the lack of diadem has been explained by Matt) "normally worn by Cleopatra on her coins. Instead, the hairstyle and drapery at the neck on the countermark head have much more in common with the Apollo type that began to appear on Antiochene civic coinage in AD 55/6 (nos. 104–105). In light of the evidence, the traditional identification of the countermark as Apollo seems much more credible than its identification as Cleopatra."

The reasons given by Kreuzer and McAlee seem to be much stronger than Hoover's (who, in part, relies on coin types about 100 years later than the coins in question).

But, as PtolemAE points out - there can be no certainty - which is no surprise after 2000 years, and like many of the Ptolemies, we have a number of choices and opinions re the identification - but this coin is mine and I'm going to decide that it's Cleopatra.

Thanks again to you both,
All the best,
Col

[PtolemAE]

Hi PtolemAE and Matt,

....

But, as PtolemAE points out - there can be no certainty - which is no surprise after 2000 years, and like many of the Ptolemies, we have a number of choices and opinions re the identification - but this coin is mine and I'm going to decide that it's Cleopatra.

Thanks again to you both,
All the best,
Col

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I have no opinion about the identity or any relation to Ptolemies. Imho it's just an ambiguous countermark, interesting and perhaps some day its meaning might be revealed.

Of course you needn't rely on anyone else's opinion at all and now the interesting question is:

If we knew for sure the countermark *weren't* Cleopatra, would you like the coin any the less?

PtolemAE

[coldavo]

Hi PtolemAE,

You bring up a nice point and, on thinking on it, I am (almost) ashamed to admit that I would like the coin more if the countermark was Cleo rather than Apollo, etc.

However - I would much rather know that it WAS DEFINATELY NOT Cleo rather than having the slim (?) possibility that it is.

It will have to go down in my collection as "thought by some to be Cleopatra".

I am enjoying seeing all of these instances of us trying to determine a history that happened over 2000 years back - and I also find the histories that we do know really fascinating. I really enjoyed rover1.3's "my favourite pieces" on this forum. We do have some really interesting people in our recent history but I feel that these rulers of 2000 years or so back are so much more "larger than life". The life of Caesar/Antony/Cleo and the way that they had brothers/sisters/opponents murdered or executed, the excesses of Caligula, the grisly birthday present that Ptolemy VIII sent to his wife/sister Cleopatra II, are all examples that prove that truth can be stranger than fiction.

It's marvelous to be able to hold evidence of these histories in our hands in the form of coins - which can be obtained at prices that anyone can afford. Other than coins my other hobby is collecting Primitive Moneys - some of which were necessary for a person to marry, others which were a specified part of the price for flesh in a cannibal feast. I find great enjoyment in both hobbies - but one of the main reasons for collecting them is the marvelous stories that can be found in these items - What other hobby allows us to hold a coin that Christ might have held or one that Judas paid in the betrayal (or types thereof).

All the best,
Col

[PtolemAE]

Hi PtolemAE,

You bring up a nice point and, on thinking on it, I am (almost) ashamed to admit that I would like the coin more if the countermark was Cleo rather than Apollo, etc.

However - I would much rather know that it WAS DEFINATELY NOT Cleo rather than having the slim (?) possibility that it is.

...

All the best,
Col

No shame in however you feel about your coin.  This opens up another interesting question:

Would you feel the coin should bring a higher price or lower price, one way or the other (all other things being equal - condition, style, etc.)? 

Figuring anything out with much certainty in ancient numismatics isn't so easy.  It took two people over 4 years working up physical evidence (that can be checked by other people if they wish) just to confidently suggest that Ptolemy II briefly had a (previously unsuspected) bronze coin mint on Sicily.  That was hard enough - best to leave the identification of faces in countermarks to others.

The interpersonal history related to ancient coins is often fascinating (though ancient brutality and ruthlessness are easily matched or exceeded in modern times) and so is the evolution of geopolitics that some collectors study.  There's plenty to recommend the collecting and study of ancient coins.  There's something for everyone - but some folks don't yet realize that

PtolemAE

[coldavo]

Hi PtolemAe,

I'm sure that, all other things being equal, a coin with good provenace, the depiction of a popular or historical figure, etc. would always bring a premium.

My finances are limited but I would always pay more for a coin depicting an interesting historical figure or one with a "good story" over a "run of the mill", stock standard, uninteresting coin.

This is not to say that these "uninteresting" coins are not exceedingly interesting to other collectors. Some people are "mad-keen" on their collection of variety stamps, all with the same head of Elizabeth II, that do not grab me at all. Everone to his (or her) own. It would be terrible if we all collected exactly the same items.

All the best,
Col 

[PtolemAE]

Hi PtolemAe,

I'm sure that, all other things being equal, a coin with good provenace, the depiction of a popular or historical figure, etc. would always bring a premium.

My finances are limited but I would always pay more for a coin depicting an interesting historical figure or one with a "good story" over a "run of the mill", stock standard, uninteresting coin.

This is not to say that these "uninteresting" coins are not exceedingly interesting to other collectors. Some people are "mad-keen" on their collection of variety stamps, all with the same head of Elizabeth II, that do not grab me at all. Everone to his (or her) own. It would be terrible if we all collected exactly the same items.

All the best,
Col 

Thanks for your insights.  It's always a bit personal where people feel a sense of monetary value.  Maybe stamp dealers have stories they can attach to those QE2 varieties that make some appeal to collectors more than others

With ancient coins some folks like images of actual people, others like mythical creatures or gods and goddesses or even real animals or identifiable objects  and - well, there's something for everyone.  On many Ptolemaic bronze coins there are perhaps 20 different countermarks for which no one has any very convincing explanation.  I'm used to uncertainty about countermarks.

PtolemAE