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Author Topic: Rhoemetalces I (or II) and Augustus (or Tiberius) AE19  (Read 1174 times)

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Offline vs1969

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Rhoemetalces I (or II) and Augustus (or Tiberius) AE19
« on: October 31, 2014, 03:06:16 am »
I have already tried to ask on the identification board to no success, so I apologize to those who have already seen this.

I have problems with the exact identification of this coin (it is mine, just arrived).
It clearly depicts a Thracian king and a Roman ruler, but the legend on the Roman ruler's side is longer than on most examples listed for Augustus (which is KAIΣAPOΣ ΣEBAΣTOY).

I have looked at the Moushmov online resource (http://wildwinds.com/moushmov/thracian_kingdom.html) and found a legend variant that seems to fit:
AYTOKPATOPOΣ KAIΣAPOΣ ΣEBAΣTOY, but Moushmov only lists the following variants with this reverse legend:

1) with double portrait of Rhoemetalces and his wife on the obverse (Moushmov 5796 - Obv: BAΣIΛEΩΣ POIMHTAΛKOY. The heads of Remetalk and his wife (or his son Coti) coupled together, right, with kontramarka. Rev. : AYTOKPATOPOΣ KAIΣAPOΣ ΣEBAΣTOY. August’s head. Plate XL 2.), the plate picture (see below) seems to show that the reverse die is close but not a match;

2) with both obverse and reverse depicting double portraits (Moushmov 5799 - Obv: BAΣIΛEΩΣ POIMHTAΛKOY. The heads of Remetalk and his wife right; in front - head of their son Coti V. Rev. : AYTOKPATOPOΣ KAIΣAPOΣ ΣEBAΣTOY. The heads of August and Livia right; in front - Capricorn. Plate XL 5.)

RPC also lists this legend for two persons' obverse (RPC 1721, AE24), but it assigns it to Rhoemetalces II and Tiberius with the following comment (Vol.1, p. 313):

"Youroukova attributes series 1711, 1718 and 1721 to Rhoemetalces II. Series 1721 is here given to Rhoemetalces II, as the title AYTOKPATOPOΣ KAIΣAPOΣ ΣEBAΣTOY and the portrait figuring on it seem more characteristic of Tiberius. "

The plate in RPC is quite similar to that in Moushmov, but without a countermark.

The coin weighs 3.40g, 19mm in diameter.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Is it unpublished?

Also it would be interesting to know the reason for this extension of the legend: What exactly AYTOKPATOPOΣ means, if this is Augustus depicted, why is this different from other variants? (as Rhoemetalces I ruled from 12 BC to 12 AD, nothing seemed to be changed in the titles of Augustus during this period). Or if it is Tiberius, why it is characteristic for him as RPC states?


Offline Joe Geranio

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Re: Rhoemetalces I (or II) and Augustus (or Tiberius) AE19
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2014, 02:11:11 pm »
http://www.provincial-romans.com/provincial/Themes/RhoemetalcesIofThrace.htm

You stated , "but the legend on the Roman ruler's side is longer than on most examples listed for Augustus (which is KAIΣAPOΣ ΣEBAΣTOY)."

The link attached has the legend on a variety of provincials.  More to come.  

Joe

Photo one- 1718

KINGS of THRACE. Rhoemetalces I. Circa 11 BC-12 AD. Æ 20mm (4.67 gm). Diademed head of Rhoemetalkes right / Bare head of Augustus right. Youroukova 200 (Rhoemetalkes II); RPC 1718 cng  With nice strike.

Here is an article up your alley

https://www.academia.edu/1987602/A_Roman_countermark_on_a_bronze_coin_of_Rhoemetalces_I_King_of_Thrace

Another.  https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/tiberius-coin/
CCAESAR

Offline vs1969

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Re: Rhoemetalces I (or II) and Augustus (or Tiberius) AE19
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2014, 04:55:04 pm »
Thanks for your answer!

Maybe I did not express myself clearly, but what I wanted to say is that most pictures of Rhoemetalces I/Augustus coins I was able to find online and in books show KAIΣAPOΣ ΣEBAΣTOY as a reverse legend, but on my coin it is longer than that, and I see it as AYTOKPATOPOΣ KAIΣAPOΣ ΣEBAΣTOY.

The sources you provided also show all the Augustus-era coins with KAIΣAPOΣ ΣEBAΣTOY on reverse, and only those attributed to Rhoemetalces II/Tiberius in RPC (RPC 1721) with a longer legend like on my coin (Moushmov, however, attributes them also to Augustus). But all those RPC 1721 coins are larger and have two busts on obverse.

I currently tend to believe that my coin is something like the smaller denomination for Rhoemetalces II/Tiberius with longer legend (from the same series as RPC 1721), but I cannot find any mention of such thing anywhere. I do not have Youroukova, but as it is referenced from RPC which does not have my coin, I believe it is not included there as well. I can be wrong, however.

Update: Sear Greek Imperial Coins lists smaller denomination for Rhoemetalces II/Tiberius (SGI-5404), but with shorter legend (KAIΣAPOΣ ΣEBAΣTOY). RPC lists such smaller denomination with short legend as RPC 1718 and (tentatively) attributes it to the Augustus time. These coins again are different from my coin.

Offline vs1969

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Re: Rhoemetalces I (or II) and Augustus (or Tiberius) AE19
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2014, 09:08:13 am »
Anybody has any idea? Is this unpublished?

 

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