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Author Topic: Vespasian 'o' mint Denarius  (Read 791 times)

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Offline David Atherton

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Vespasian 'o' mint Denarius
« on: October 29, 2014, 01:36:43 am »
I just received this rare 'o' mint denarius: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-114005

It's not in the best shape, but makes a great 'place holder' until a better one comes around (which probably won't be very soon!).

Offline ancientdave

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Re: Vespasian 'o' mint Denarius
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2014, 01:43:27 am »
That's quite an attractive place holder!  +++

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Vespasian 'o' mint Denarius
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2014, 07:47:02 am »
That's quite an attractive place holder!  +++

Well, perhaps 'place holder' is an exaggeration. It is much better looking in hand and will probably be in my collection for many years to come.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Vespasian 'o' mint Denarius
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2014, 11:17:06 am »
In a rare series like this one, I'd recommend keeping the poorer one too if you upgrade, as long as the two are not from the same die pair!

You write, "thought to have been minted at Ephesus due to a similar 'o' mint mark previously used at that mint". I regard that as a clear mistake by Buttrey and Carradice. Yes, annulets appear on some late Ephesus denarii too, but everything else is against attributing this later annulet series to Ephesus. Ephesus had its own reverse types, faithfully repeated from issue to issue. But the new series copies its rev. types from Rome, as you note. Ephesus had its own obv. legends too, usually dated with consulships. Quite different in the new series, again copied from Rome. The style is totally different. Errors, such as calling Titus PON MAX and many mules mixing obverses of one emperor with reverses of another, occur only in the later series, never at Ephesus. Against these blatant differences, the shared annulets are I think a mere trifle. A clear case of different mints in my eyes! So "Ephesus (?)" should be dropped, and we should return to "uncertain Asia Minor mint".
Curtis Clay

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Vespasian 'o' mint Denarius
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2014, 06:29:56 pm »
Curtis, thank you for your keen insight into this wonderful and mysterious issue. The annulet and style (given the two year gap) I can accept as possibly from Ephesus, but the types copied from Rome and the mules have always bothered me. As you have already pointed out those are not traits from that mint and do need an explanation, the two year gap in this case is not enough. Is it significant that a nearly contemporary issue of provincial silver was struck at Caesarea in Cappadocia? Perhaps we need to look further to the east for our mint?

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Vespasian 'o' mint Denarius
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2014, 01:54:19 pm »
This is far from my area of study but I never considered Ephesus since the period also includes coins marked EPE and the style of the two is not all that similar.  Since that was not mentioned, I assume I was making an assumption not well supported.  I don't have a Vespasian of either but below is a Titus O and Domitian EPE. 


Offline curtislclay

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Re: Vespasian 'o' mint Denarius
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2014, 03:22:03 pm »
Yes, the mintmark EPHE is the basis for attributing that whole earlier series to Ephesus, including the similar coins with no EPHE but other marks.

Buttrey and Carradice are the only ones to assign the later annulet series too to the same mint, though they add a question mark, "Ephesus (?)", to indicate remaining doubts in their own minds. I think anyone examining the two series objectively will conclude, like you and all earlier numismatists, that they are very different, so appear to come from different mints. But of course now that  "Ephesus (?)" has gone into print in a standard reference work, it will be copied again and again and will be impossible to eradicate!
Curtis Clay

 

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