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Author Topic: Venus Erycina  (Read 1726 times)

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Offline mauseus

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Venus Erycina
« on: October 26, 2014, 06:30:26 pm »
Hi,

Just acquired this coin for my embryonic buildings and monuments collection at http://archinumis.blogspot.co.uk/

C. Considius Nonianus (56 BC). AR denarius . Rome. C. CONSIDI. NONIANI behind, S. C before, laureate and diademed bust of Venus Erycina right / Temple on summit of mountain, surrounded with rampart; above central gateway, ERVC. Crawford 424/1. Sydenham 888. Considia 1b. Scarce.

The reverse of this coin shows the temple precinct of Venus Erycina, a goddess whose cult originated at the town of Eryx in Sicily.

Apologies for the lesser quality image from my mobile, a better image will be used on my buildings website shortly.

Regards,

Mauseus



Offline Sam

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2014, 07:24:58 pm »
Nice Denarius , congratulations.

Sam
Sam Mansourati

mharlan

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2014, 10:33:48 am »
The temple has traditionally been described as the temple of Venus at Eryx in Sicily. I think that it is more likely the temple of Venus Erycina outside the Colline Gate of Rome. I have copied an excerpt from my book below.


By insisting on identifying the temple on the coin as that of Venus at Eryx in Sicily, we overlook what was obvious to most Romans. In fulļ¬llment of a vow made by his father during the Ligurian war, Lucius Porcius Licinus dedicated the temple of Venus Erycina outside the Colline Gate in 181. Strabo said that it was a copy of the temple at Eryx in Sicily and Licinus also copied the remarkable portico surrounding the temple, which is not shown on the coin. Since the temple outside the Colline Gate was a replica, we might expect that Licinus built it on a suitably lofty location either natural or artiļ¬cial.

The coin depicts substantial walls surrounding the temple with two ļ¬‚anking towers. For what? The town of Eryx had been desolate since 241 and the temple and its prostitutes did not require massive walls. Moreover, would a Roman think ļ¬rst of the temple in Sicily which most had never seen or the one outside the Colline Gate of Rome? From a perspective inside the city, the scene on the coin is a view overlooking the massive Roman fortiļ¬cation wall of Rome with its towers ļ¬‚anking the Colline Gate. The gate is arched which is typical of later Roman architecture, while Western Greeks still used the square post and lintel construction when Eryxā€™s walls were built. Outside the gate stands the temple of Venus Erycina whose most recent historical connection was with the Sullan victory at the Colline Gate, since it was near her temple that Sulla camped before the battle. The laurel in the hair of Venus on the obverse of the coin is indicative of that victory.

Offline mauseus

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2014, 10:43:47 am »
Hi,

Thank-you for the additional info, I still haven't got around to looking up Hill's entry or the type in Donaldson yet.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Molinari

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2014, 12:40:14 pm »
The temple has traditionally been described as the temple of Venus at Eryx in Sicily. I think that it is more likely the temple of Venus Erycina outside the Colline Gate of Rome. I have copied an excerpt from my book below.


By insisting on identifying the temple on the coin as that of Venus at Eryx in Sicily, we overlook what was obvious to most Romans. In fulļ¬llment of a vow made by his father during the Ligurian war, Lucius Porcius Licinus dedicated the temple of Venus Erycina outside the Colline Gate in 181. Strabo said that it was a copy of the temple at Eryx in Sicily and Licinus also copied the remarkable portico surrounding the temple, which is not shown on the coin. Since the temple outside the Colline Gate was a replica, we might expect that Licinus built it on a suitably lofty location either natural or artiļ¬cial.

The coin depicts substantial walls surrounding the temple with two ļ¬‚anking towers. For what? The town of Eryx had been desolate since 241 and the temple and its prostitutes did not require massive walls. Moreover, would a Roman think ļ¬rst of the temple in Sicily which most had never seen or the one outside the Colline Gate of Rome? From a perspective inside the city, the scene on the coin is a view overlooking the massive Roman fortiļ¬cation wall of Rome with its towers ļ¬‚anking the Colline Gate. The gate is arched which is typical of later Roman architecture, while Western Greeks still used the square post and lintel construction when Eryxā€™s walls were built. Outside the gate stands the temple of Venus Erycina whose most recent historical connection was with the Sullan victory at the Colline Gate, since it was near her temple that Sulla camped before the battle. The laurel in the hair of Venus on the obverse of the coin is indicative of that victory.

Mharlan,

Could you provide the publication information and page you cite?  I use this coin type in an upcoming publication and refer to the temple as  Venus Erycina.  I didn't know that was disputed so I'd like to cite your work if possible!

Thanks,

Nick

Offline Molinari

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2014, 12:51:36 pm »
I'm assuming this is the book:

M. Harlan's Roman Republican Moneyers and their Coins, 81 BCE to 64 BCE

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2014, 01:07:16 pm »
I'm afraid the consensus on this temple, as per Crawford's Roman Republican coinage but in this instance agreed with by Michael Harlan, is indeed that it is the Colline gate one. For example Crawford says in RRC: The moneyer of RRC424 is not otherwise known, but notes the Sullan loyalties of Nonii Sufenates, Sullaā€™s attachment to Venus, and the Colline gate victory being near the temple of Venus Erycina, as factors influencing the reverse type. He doesn't even debate the possibility of it being the Sicilian temple, whose existence he would have been well aware of.

I would cite Crawford in this instance and not use Michael Harlan's book as your citation source, but as a source of ideas. For 80% of material where Michael takes a conventional view, his book is an easy read. For the remaining 20% half is interesting ideas and half are ideas that could be easily enough rebutted when one goes back to source data including hoards, and views of others as regards magistracies and other issues. So as an interesting read, fine, but I wouldn't cite it as a reference in a paper, except in cases where you are referring to new ideas brought forward and can review them critically.

That said, the conventional view might be wrong, but one would have to construct a rebuttal as to why the Rome temple would be ignored and a distant provincial temple used instead, not to mention the topographical factors mentioned above.

(above post was extensively edited as I'd broken Forum's rule number 1 in my earlier edit, for which I apologise)

mharlan

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2014, 01:51:02 pm »
Hi Nick,

Prior to my suggestion that this coin represents the temple of Venus Erycina outside the Colline Gate of Rome  in my book Roman Republican Moneyers and Their Coins 63 BC - 49 BC (1995) pp. 92-93, the assumption was that it was the temple of Venus at Eryx in Sicily and Crawford identified it as such.

Here is the quote:
The temple on the reverse is that of Venus at Eryx (on its architecture see C. K.
Galinsky, Aeneas, 184 n.109; G. Fuchs, Architekturdarstellungen, 58-63; the discussion
of M. Cheilik, Gr. Rom. Byz. Studies 1965, 215 is not illuminating); given
the Pompeian associations of the moneyer's presumed brother, RE Considius
13, the Sullan loyalties of the Nonii Sufenates in this period, Sulla's attachment to
Venus and the fact that the crowning victory of the Colline Gate took place near
the Roman temple of Venus Erycina, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the
moneyer wished to express his sympathy with the Pompeian claim to have succeeded
Sulla as the favourite of Venus (see on no. 426 and p. 734; briefly, H.
MattiQgly, PBA 1963, 336; contra, without argument, S. Mirone, RIN 1918, 189).

Seaby also had the same identification of the temple as the one at Eryx in Sicily. "The worship of Venus Erycina was derived from Eryx in Sicily where the goddess had a famous temple, which was said to have been built by the hero Eryx, a son of Aphrodite and King Butes, and of which a view is shown here.'

If the current consensus is that it is the temple of Venus Erycina at the Colline Gate, then it seems that my idea has gained acceptance and you might want to cite the above reference.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2014, 01:53:40 pm »
 In the essay I list the reverse as showing the Roman temple, not the Sicilian temple.  So you need not be afraid to report the common interpretation, as I thought it was the only one! It is only a minor note that I wouldn't even have to cite had there not been alternative views.

Thanks for the assistance and clarification!

Edit: I posted as Michael responsed and edited my post.  Michael, if you are the first to suggest it I will cite you!

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2014, 02:05:35 pm »
My reference to Crawford's views indicate that in 1974 he identifies it as the Colline gate temple, not as the Sicilian. So other than older sources I'm not sure there is, or has recently been, anyone arguing for it being the Sicilian temple.

mharlan

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2014, 02:35:26 pm »
Hi Nick,

As you can see from the quotes I copied, the older view was that it was the temple in Sicily. I believe I was the first one to suggest that it was the temple outside the Colline Gate. If new references cite it as the temple of Venus Erycina outside the Colline Gate, that would be gratifying, but when I read catalog descriptions, it seems that they are still referencing the temple at Eryx. Here are a couple of CNG's descriptions.

C. Considius Nonianus. 56 BC. AR Denarius (18mm, 3.92 g, 5h). Laureate bust of Venus Erycina right, wearing stephane / Tetrastyle temple of Venus Erycina on summit of mountain, entrance and surrounding ramparts below. Crawford 424/1; Sydenham 887; Considia 1a. EF, toned.

C. Considius Nonianus. 56 BC. AR Denarius (18mm, 3.83 g, 7h). Rome mint. Laureate and draped bust of Venus Erycina right, wearing stephane / Temple on summit of rocky mountain surrounded by wall with towers on each side and gate in center; ERVC above gate. Crawford 424/1; Sydenham 887; Considia 1a. Good VF, dark, iridescent toning, a few shallow scratches under tone.

Where have you seen it referenced as the Temple of Venus Erycina outside the Colline Gate?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2014, 04:01:49 pm »
Seaby is a copy of Babelon which is 19th century. CNG copies Seaby/Sear. So citing CNG as if its a modern source makes little sense if its based on Babelon. Generally Sear/Seaby takes the 150 year old Babelon view unchanged and CNG and other coin sellers use it for convenience.

For the third time on this thread I'll repeat that Crawford cites the Colline gate temple in his 1974 masterpiece, and I doubt Crawford was the first since he cites it without comment as probably a well established view by then.

mharlan

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2014, 04:30:05 pm »
Hi Andrew,

I know that you have repeated it three times and it is true that Crawford mentions the battle at the Colline Gate, but he identified the temple on the coin saying, "The temple on the reverse is that of Venus at Eryx." I have given the whole quote above.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2014, 04:49:05 pm »

Where have you seen it referenced as the Temple of Venus Erycina outside the Colline Gate?

Only from the original post by Mauseus.  I was researching local cults that move to different cities and this thread was fresh in mind, so I figured I'd illustrate the point with reference to this coin.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2014, 06:18:01 pm »
Hi Andrew,

I know that you have repeated it three times and it is true that Crawford mentions the battle at the Colline Gate, but he identified the temple on the coin saying, "The temple on the reverse is that of Venus at Eryx." I have given the whole quote above.

Edit: I've now read the entire cited text above.

Part of the reason I'm pushed on this matter (in my usual crankypants role) is that I haven't, for decades, thought the reference on the coin to refer to the Sicilian temple. In fact I've always thought it would have been much nicer if the reference was to the better known Sicilian temple site. So my deep rooted background assumption that it wasn't Sicily must have come from somewhere. In fact I believe I read or mis-read Crawford's words (full text earlier this thread) as conflating the Temple of Venus at Eryx, with The Temple of Venus Erycina (in Rome) and assumed it was the Rome temple that was being discussed.

Thus I'll have to issue my second apology of this thread, the first for breaking Rule Number One, and the second for mis-reading Crawford, not just now, but for decades, as to the location of the temple shown on this coin.

So it turns out that I've always thought the pictured temple to be the one at Rome and not in Sicily, but it seems I thought so for entirely the wrong reasons (I didn't understand Crawford's text), but Michael H. has come to the rescue and shown that I may have been accidentally right all along if we accept Michael's interpretation. Whew! Though I suspect this thread is to he continued, with other citations turning up in due course.

Here's my coin. This may help distract you all.


Offline carthago

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2014, 07:23:06 pm »
Pitty.  I had always fancied the reference was Erice in Sicily since I visited it a few years ago.  Beautiful hilltop town.  Made pasticcini with my kids and Maria Grammatico in her kitchen.  Probably overpaid for a high quality example of the coin to match my fond memories as a result.

Now you guys have ruined it for me with this Colline Gate revelation.   :'(

Offline mauseus

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2014, 07:36:43 pm »
Hi,

Thank-you all who have contributed to this thread. This will help with my catalogue citation on the web page.

Fantastic coin Andrew, I wish my budget example matched up to yours.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline benito

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Re: Venus Erycina
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2014, 04:19:26 am »
HereĀ“s mine.


 

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