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Author Topic: Semi-cleaned Roman Republic?  (Read 645 times)

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Offline Clark T

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Semi-cleaned Roman Republic?
« on: October 17, 2014, 12:03:38 am »
First off, this is my first post.  Apologies if this isn't the best place to ask this question.  The coin pictured here is one I bought in a  set of uncleaned bronzes, advertised as Roman.  With two of them, they are hopelessly encrusted, and are sitting in an olive oil bath for a long time.

This piece was the first one I was able to clean - using TSP, distilled water, a toothbrush, a brass brush, and toothpicks - and start to identify.  What's on the obverse appears to be Janus, and the reverse has the faint outline of a ship.  From what I've seen of these coins, the best way to identify them is to look for the name of the moneyer somewhere near the ship on the reverse.

That's the rub, however.  After several days of alternating between olive oil/lemon juice, distilled water, and additional cleanings with TSP, I have hit a wall.  It doesn't seem like any more work is helping get the crust off. 

So, first, if anyone has any ideas about the ID on this one, I would greatly appreciate it.  Second, though, if anyone can help me figure out what to do to get the rest of the dirt and crust off this thing, I would be even more grateful. Thanks!

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Semi-cleaned Roman Republic?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2014, 12:07:57 am »
Welcome Clark.

Andrew is the real expert on these but a size and weight can really help narrow it down.  I wouldn't use lemon juice to clean, just distilled water.  Maybe pick up a very sharp exacto knife and carefully pick at the encrustations.  Looks like there is a decent coin in there.

Offline Clark T

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Re: Semi-cleaned Roman Republic?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2014, 12:14:39 am »
Thanks, Jay!  I was using lemon juice only for a period of less than an hour, and it typically didn't do much for this or any other coin - that was based on a suggestion I'd seen elsewhere on the web.

As for measurements, it is 27mm at its widest point (from a point at the top of Janus' head to the bottom), and weighs 10.6 grams.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Semi-cleaned Roman Republic?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2014, 02:15:30 am »
This is a mystery coin to me. The diameter, weight, obverse style and fabric indicate a semuncia as of about 90 - 85 BC. The reverse prow with the large slanted triangular platform above and the vertical front to the prow and the narrow prowstem angled at 45 degrees doesn't match any known issue. It may be imitative, but if so it's not a style a recognise. Prows like this are found on the Punic war coins of Luceria but the obverse style and fabric don't match. So I'm afraid I can't help much. I doubt cleaning more will help , I doubt there are more details to be found.

Offline Clark T

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Re: Semi-cleaned Roman Republic?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2014, 09:42:35 am »
Andrew, thank you for your response - I'm not sure if I should be glad or saddened that an expert like yourself can't identify it.  I'm not discounting that it could be a modern fake - but I highly doubt it, given the difficulty I've had in cleaning this coin.  That being said, I have a couple of questions:

1) When you say imitative, I know that can encompass a wide range of "imitators".  Do you have an idea of what style of imitation this may be?
2) Forgive me for being this new, but when you say the "fabric" is wrong, to what are you referring - the metal, the texture, the imprint? 
3) I noticed the triangle shape too, but I didn't know if it was my mind playing tricks on me or not.  Could that triangle merely be more encrustation, or is that a feature you have seen before on similar coins?
4) While there may not be any more details, if I wanted to clean it further to enhance what's there, do you have any recommendations?
5) I'm least interested in this, but I'm just curious - if this is an unknown type, or an unknown variant, is there any value there?  I don't intend to sell it, but am mildly curious.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Semi-cleaned Roman Republic?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2014, 02:17:29 pm »
Imitative in that it is not from the official mint and probably an ancient imitation of a Republican semiunica.  That's the reason the style doesn't match. 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Semi-cleaned Roman Republic?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2014, 01:23:06 am »
The triangle section is seen above the prow on some issues for example the following coin, and represents an elevated fighting platform from which attacks can be made on adjacent ships, but your coin is not generally of this style, and this coin is struck on a conical flan (obverse diameter is evidently smaller than reverse diameter) whereas your coin is not:



Your coin is a genuine ancient coin. As Jay says, when I say imitative, I mean that perhaps it was not an official mint issue.

Fabric refers to the physical shape of the flan and how the flan reacted to the strike of the coin, which will depend on its original physical shape and manufacture process, its metallurgy, and the nature of the strike. Recognising fabric is not an easily taught subject, but rather one that one learns gradually over years handling many coins. For example, one can see whether a flan was made in an one sided open mould or a two sided sandwich mould, as there will be a central edge seam which is often offset in case of the latter. In case of the former, it could be a conical mould in which one side of the coin is wider than the other side, or a water drop shape whereby one side is flat and the other curved. Sometimes reverse dies were made convex so the coin reverse is concave. Sometimes there are typical edge cracks. Sometimes a coin is typically struck with dies smaller than the flan diameter and sometimes the other way round. Sometimes there are typical casting depressions or blow holes; either of the latter indicate two sided moulds. Sometimes not. Either one or two sided moulds may have casting sprues (either one per coin, or two, depending whether the mould is linear or tree shaped), but sometimes one sided mould coins have no sprues, being cast in a drop. There may be centration holes if the flans were lathed or clamped eg to remove sprues or edge defects. Another factor is how round a coin is and what made it round. Some coins have flattened edges like a fifty pence piece and may have been cut from plate. One looks to see whether the edges are flat or raggedy and if there's a seam or evidence of a removed sprue. When all factors come together a coin may be described as having a well made flan, but that's a combination of many ingredients. In short, there are a myriad things to look for. In the case of your coin the fabric, size and obverse style are typical of the coins of 90-85 BC but the reverse design prow is untypical of that era.

Sometimes coins are just too badly worn to give a secure identification, and no amount of cleaning can restore missing material. I think that applies in the case of your coin, and it may never be possible to say much more than that it is a genuine ancient coin, of the type of a Republican as, but perhaps imitative. For Republican bronzes, stylistic variations in even excellently preserved examples don't command any value premium; it goes almost without saying that a coin which cannot be securely identified is not going to be of much value. At least not financial value, but should you start collecting this series as a result of this coin, it might have later sentimental value.

I have no recommendation as to how to clean this coin, as I never clean my own coins, mainly because I buy coins that are already in a condition (either cleaned, uncleaned or partially cleaned) that I want them to stay in, but also partly because I'm not a cleaning expert and I don't want to risk removing material that may evidence the original design or that may be part of a 2000 year old protective patina. When I want a coin cleaned (I say "want" rather than "need", as whether to clean a coin at all is a subjective choice based on my own personal preferences and my own perceptions of value) then I ask an expert to do it for me. You own the coin and you choose what to do with it.

 

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