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Author Topic: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help  (Read 587 times)

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Offline jgad

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Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« on: October 14, 2014, 03:27:20 pm »
Don't yet have this one in hand.

29mm and 10.68 grams.

There appears to be a clear punch in the center of the coin but cant make out details.  Sellers indicate this may be a helmet but I don't see it.  At any rate, I don't recall ever seeing countermarks on these types.  Two questions.

1)  Can someone ID the coin
2)  Can someone ID the countermark...or even confirm it is indeed a countermark.




Thanks in advance.

- Javier

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2014, 04:27:38 pm »
Don't yet have this one in hand.

29mm and 10.68 grams.

There appears to be a clear punch in the center of the coin but cant make out details.  Sellers indicate this may be a helmet but I don't see it.  At any rate, I don't recall ever seeing countermarks on these types.  Two questions.

1)  Can someone ID the coin
2)  Can someone ID the countermark...or even confirm it is indeed a countermark.




Thanks in advance.

- Javier

Javier

Very very nice. This, from style, fabric, design of the prow etc. is certainly a semuncial as from 90 BC or thereabouts. If there is no lettering above the prow, then it is Crawford 339/1, anonymous as. It is equally possible that it is an as of D. Silanus Crawford 337/5, as they have the same style, or possibly L.P.D.A.P, Crawford 338/1 (Lex Papiria de Assis Pondere). I show all three types below for comparison: NB the reverse prows vary randomly in small design details, but the same engravers worked on all issues so it could be any of the three unless you can see lettering above.





As to what the countermark or other mark is, I suspect this may be a double strike or probably even an overstrike. That would make it a very interesting coin because overstrikes are almost unknown in this era. As it happens, I have an overstrike of this type (either 337/7, 338/1 or 339/1) over a semis, see beow, so it is possible, though rare.


I also recall seeing one time an as of these types with a circular countermark, but the countermark was much more obvious than on your coin, where I feel sure that the mark is a relic of something underneath rather than something over it.

But if in hand you think it is a countermark on, rather than an understrike under, then let is know.

Offline jgad

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2014, 04:51:25 pm »
Thanks for the detailed reply Andrew...

When I get it in hand I'll definitely post my impressions.  Quick question...  wouldn't we expect to see the value mark (I) above Janus  on my coin?

- Javier

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2014, 05:23:47 pm »
Thanks for the detailed reply Andrew...

When I get it in hand I'll definitely post my impressions.  Quick question...  wouldn't we expect to see the value mark (I) above Janus  on my coin?

- Javier

Some variants of these issues are without obverse value mark. It's noted in Crawford. Well spotted, I hadn't noticed. It may apply only for certain issues, I don't have Crawford to hand, but as Crawford wasn't comprehensive in his listing of varieties of these semuncial Asses, lacking a certain reverse ID won't be conclusive. If you have the RBW collection book you'll see my commentary on some of these types.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2014, 05:32:33 pm »
PS my gut feel based on style is that your coin is of the LPDAP Lax Paprika issue

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2014, 05:34:15 pm »
PS my gut feel based on style is that your coin is of the LPDAP Lax Paprika issue

Isn't autocorrect wonderful. I want a Lax Paprika coin.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2014, 05:57:12 pm »
Is it just me or does the left side of Janus look double struck?

Offline Carausius

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2014, 06:59:05 pm »
I see what you mean, Jay - its sort of buried in the left Janus' cheek. I also see the ghost of a nose and mouth at about 3:30 off the right Janus' face.  That, or the patina is playing tricks on me!  If what you and I are seeing are real and not just photo/patina anomalies, then I suppose these could be remnants of an undertype or evidence of a wide-shift double strike.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2014, 07:20:26 pm »
I see it too.  Both on the left and right.

Offline jgad

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2014, 09:09:40 pm »
Good eye...didn't see it before.  Definitely looks double struck.

- Javier

Offline jgad

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2014, 08:39:25 pm »


Andrew and Everybody:

Coin is now in hand.  It definitely looks to be overstruck.  On the obverse, at the three oclock there appears to be evidence of letters and a small prow.


On the reverse, the galley seems to have been struck over the center circle punch and there appears to be a 4 pointed star above the galley (at the 12 oclock) with each of the spokes terminating in a dot.  The other thing that is evident is the form of the acrostilium.  I don't remember seeing anything like this on a roman republican As:  looks more like the galley depicted on the fonteius denarius (you can see what I mean about 11 oclock).  Strange coin indeed.


- Javier

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2014, 03:12:45 am »
Javier

This is a.coin I'd love to have in hand (and love to have, full stop).

I suspect the acrostilium effect you mention is an understrike artefact. What you mention in comparison to the Fonteia is the stern decoration, aplustre or branch, and it's not conceivable that the Romans would confuse a prow with a stern. Hence I think any oddness at 11pm must be an understrike effect. The prow otherwise looks normal and of good.style.

The first thing to.eliminate is that this might be a double strike of the same type. I doubt it is, but you should be able to rule this out in hand by rotating the reverse and verifying that it's impossible. Then, you'd need to search for undertypes, second century BC bronzes of about that size. That could be a lengthy process, but there's no easy short cuts. Have a look at Italian civic bronzes (Brundisium etc) first, then Sicilian bronzes under the Romans, then other prow types (e.g. Roman semis as per my example) then perhaps Spain or Macedonia. It's an open ended search, but starting close to home would make sense. You may never find out, but pass the coin around among friends. A light bulb may lit up at some point.

Andrew

Offline jgad

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2014, 08:37:06 am »
Thanks for the insight Andrew.

Since I have had very little exposure to second century BC bronzes and none in Italian civic bronzes this should be an interesting educational experience for me.  Of course my research will be limited to online resources.  Unfortunately, my only friends in the hobby are also online so passing the coin around is not really feasible...posting here and my Ancient Peddler Yahoo group  is as close as it gets. 

I will let you if I come across anything worth pursuing.


Take care and thanks again.

- Javier

Offline Carausius

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2014, 08:49:25 am »
I still see evidence of double-striking, even in Javier's photos. I wonder if this may be a double-struck over-strike?  If so, striking!  ;) 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 08:51:48 am »
Thanks for the insight Andrew.

Since I have had very little exposure to second century BC bronzes and none in Italian civic bronzes this should be an interesting educational experience for me.  Of course my research will be limited to online resources.  Unfortunately, my only friends in the hobby are also online so passing the coin around is not really feasible...posting here and my Ancient Peddler Yahoo group  is as close as it gets. 

I will let you if I come across anything worth pursuing.

Take care and thanks again.

- Javier

Good luck but I think it's going to be tough in that case. Determining undertypes benefits from having experience of the undertype coins in hand so high relief areas are evident; having the overtype i.e. your coin in hand is probably also essential because often one can see the undertype by angling the coin in certain lights and shadows and at certain angles and rotations. That's almost impossible from a photo. One undertype recognition tip is to look for elements at the edges, which are often not fully struck over. For example some Punic war overstrikes show residue of the Punic horse's tail, or a star above the bull, or specifically shaped hair curls on the obverse, any of which can immediately nail a type; each of these symptoms is near the edge of the coin. Anyway it's a coin that intrigues me, so enjoy it.

I also don't rule out a double strike, but then you'd need to match the evident reverse additions to elements of the design you can see.

Offline jgad

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2014, 09:20:24 am »
Carusius:

The obverse is definitely a doublestrike.  Although I still need to look a the reverse closer, on preliminary inspection I did not see obvious signs of a doublestrike on the reverse

- Javier

Offline jgad

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Re: Countermark on Republican As? ID Help
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2014, 09:22:41 am »
Thanks for the tips Andrew...will definitely try the techniques you recommended.  

- Javier

 

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