Viella Neapolis (sic) ID

[Molinari]

Hello Everyone,

A seller had this coin listed as "Viela Neapolis?".  It is bronze and weighs 2.93g.  It interests me because the style of the bull's body strongly indicates that it had a man's face, and the symbol below the bull is also reminiscent of MFB coinage from the area.  Perhaps someone can identify it and disprove my idea that this is an imitation of a Campania MFB coin?

Any help is greatly appreciated. 

Nick

[Andrew McCabe]

wishful thinking to presume that the off-flan part of the coin shows something unpublished ... I'd assume this is a standard Velia bronze with bull rather than MFB (or is the bull type not known to exist, not having my Italian coin books to hand I can't ID it?)

[Molinari]

That's just the thing, I can't find any Velia bronze that matches this! I don't know where the seller got Velia and he doesn't list any references.

[Andrew McCabe]

That's just the thing, I can't find any Velia bronze that matches this! I don't know where the seller got Velia and he doesn't list any references.

How about the core from a silver type: the obverse has that sort of scraped off look that one sometimes gets with plated cores. Just an idea.

[Molinari]

That's a very intriguing possibility.... and in that case it wouldn't be from Velia, but one of the other mints that issued MFB coins in the area (or an imitation of such coins)!  I see no coins with a bull from Velia, in any metal.  Nico saw possible lion paws on the reverse but I do not think so.  I think that's the body of a bull.

[Enodia]

it definitely looks like the body of a bull, and like no Velia coin i am aware of.
all the Velia lions looks ravenously thin, as one might expect them to look. this animal appears much more cattle-like. however i wouldn't presume it to be man-faced by any evidence seen here.

~ Peter

[Molinari]

Yes, I certainly won't presume anything.  I'm hoping someone knows the coin and can settle the question so I don't have to chase after a hunch.  My gut says body of man-faced bull though (based on style and posture), and I think an imitation or fouree core is a good possibility here. 

[Meepzorp]

Hi Nick,

I agree with you about the bull's body. It looks like the type found on MFB coins.

But the obverse is way off. It doesn't look like any MFB obverse that I've ever seen. Andrew may be onto something. The obverse portrait, with crested helmet (?), looks like the portrait found on AR Magna Graecia coins (Lucania, Thorium, etc.).

Is that a fish in exergue on the reverse? That is found on AR Campania, Phistelia and AR Lucania, Thorium reverses.

Meepzorp

[Taras]

I agree with Meep, most likely Thurium. Bronze coins are known for Thurium with Athena in attic helm/bull walking r and fish in ex

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

Building on Taras' confirmation of my theory, I searched Wildwinds. I found a similar AE coin minted in Lucania, Thourioi. The reference is SNG Cop. 1496. Of course, Nick's coin is a variation of that. On the Wildwinds examples, the bull's head is facing, and the bull's body is different. On Nick's coin, the bull's body looks more like the body found on Campania MFB coins.

Meepzorp

[Enodia]

i'm sorry, i know it should seem obvious but i'm not getting Thourioi at all, despite somewhat strange crested  helmet and the tunny.

the stance isn't right, and the few of their coins on which the bull isn't charging it also doesn't have the same 'walking' front legs that this coin shows. that seems more like a Campanian trait to me, just from what i've seen.
not very scientific, but my two obols worth.

~ Peter

[Taras]

The style of the bull's body and legs is really very similar to SNG Deutschland 1217, but there it is walking left not right, also the fish in exergue is strongly resembling Thurium bronze coinage. Anyway I am not sure of the attribution to Thurium, it's just a suggestion, maybe Peter is right and that could be an unknown campanian coin. However, we will never know if the bull is regular or man-faced.
To be honest I'm not even sure that the bull is walking, looking better now I think to see a bend leg!!!  But it could just be corrosions.
I would like to see better pics of this riddle coin.

Bye friends
Nico