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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Byzantine Coins (Moderators: vercingetorix, wileyc, Paleologos)  |  Topic: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki  (Read 11102 times)
Pep
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« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2012, 07:43:57 pm »

Great find Bill!

overlineIC overlineXC is backwards too.  I wanted to place it in the #24s with the other crudes but couldn't find a logical fit.  The #22 area seems to be a candidate but it would break the listed progession of two dots on the Book.  Based on your comment on #14a's style, maybe F14c would be the best name and place for this new variety?

Kevin  Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2012, 09:22:10 am »

overlineIC overlineXC is backwards too.  I wanted to place it in the #24s with the other crudes but couldn't find a logical fit.  The #22 area seems to be a candidate but it would break the listed progession of two dots on the Book.  Based on your comment on #14a's style, maybe F14c would be the best name and place for this new variety?

Hi Kevin,

Yes, the retrograde  reversedC Greek_Iota (Is there any overscoring above these letters? Not obviously) in the right field is a significant feature of this coin. I meant to make that clear in my original post, but in transferring text from my word processor to the FORVM text editor, a paragraph accidentally got deleted.  Of course, it raises the serious possibility that this is a contemporary imitation rather than an official issue, but on the whole I’m inclined not to think so: the overall style of the coin is good, the weight and diameter are inside the normal range, the reverse inscription is correctly written, and the lettering (though somewhat crude) is probably within the bounds of acceptable variation.

When I wrote of similarities between the font on this coin and Grierson’s A2.14a I was thinking mainly of (i) the same form used for the letter A and (ii) a form of the letter S which usually extends below the line of the other letters and doesn’t level out horizontally at the bottom.

Where to place it in your list? Unless you go for the “contemporary imitation” category, I guess that F14c is as good a place as any. Grierson’s table is sort of sacrosanct, so we can’t change his existing numbering of varieties, but only add sub-types to cope with new evidence. And the exact taxonomy probably doesn’t matter as much as the fact that this particular Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament variation is recorded somewhere.  

Bill R.
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« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2012, 03:36:39 am »

I added F14c to the table.  Bill, in whose collection is this coin for the sake of the chart's Notes section?  PM me if necessary.

Thanks,

Kevin  Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2012, 08:46:04 am »

Hi Kevin, 
The F14c coin in is my collection.

By the way (since you are updating your excellent list): while looking in the literature for other examples of F14c, I noticed that the 1977 Mardin Hoard pamphlet contains two Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament varieties not mentioned elsewhere:

(1)  Obverse with in nimbus and in Gospels; reverse decoration unrecognisable. The authors comment: “New variety or possibly a forgery, as dies are irregular and reverse inscription is faulty.”  The obverse (only) of this coin appears as plate 1.2 and shows what the ‘dies are irregular’ remark means – the Gospel book is aligned directly below the head of Christ instead of being offset to the right as usual, and Christ’s right hand appears to be below the book. Size 30mm and weight 8.78g;

(2) A new variant of type 47, with on the reverse. Size 25mm and weight 7.35g (plate 1.4).

Also described is an example of F42c (size 29.5mm and weight 6.99g; obverse illustrated as plate 1.3) with the added comment that another specimen can be found among the coins at the Barber Institute in Birmingham. 

Don’t be surprised by the low weightsMardin hoard coins are without exception found in seriously worn condition. Reference:  The Mardin Hoard, by N.M. Lowick, S. Bendall, and P. D. Whitting, published A.H. Baldwin & Sons Ltd. London 1977, see pages 21, 56 and plate 1.

Bill R.


   
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« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2012, 03:12:30 am »

Hello Bill,

My apologies for the late reply.  I added the second coin as F47b.  As for the first, without the reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament I'm hesitant to list it at this time.  It could be an existing entry?  Your notes for the coins were also added at the bottom.

Thanks,

Kevin  Smiley
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« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2013, 12:09:48 pm »

Hi everyone,

Here’s a recent acquisition of mine which doesn’t seem to be documented in Kevin’s Numiswiki table:
Size: 31 x 26mm.
Weight: 8.14g.

Obverse:  Nimbus  two pellets  and book also two pellets   (within jewelled border).
Reverse:  Ornamentation something like the little jpeg below.

Because of the weight I wouldn’t put it among the ‘metropolitan’ varieties, though the F24 category is looking already a bit overcrowded.

Bill R.


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« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2013, 09:57:30 am »

Here is my recent acquisition which is of type Class A Folles' target='_blank'>Class A2, 32:

Weight: 9.2 g
Diameter: 31 mm

Obv: + EMMA NOVHΛ IC - XC.
Bust of Christ facing, holding book of gospels, with nimbus. Cross on book of gospels; cross in each arm of gospel.

Rev: + IhSYS/ XRISTYS/ bASILEY/ bASILE.
Legend in four lines.

Nimbus:
Book:
Reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament:

Cheers.

Sponge Bob
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« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2013, 03:04:57 pm »

You should put that one up in best of type.
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« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2014, 11:29:30 pm »

Interested in a opinion of this coin. Particularly the pattern on the book of Gospels,it seems to be possibly five rows of five pellets, otherwise it would fit in the F24 variation.

9.16g 28mm

any thoughts

thanks

cw
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« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2014, 05:59:04 am »

cw:

It looks like F24c in Pep's Numiswiki ornamentation table.

Bill R.
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« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2018, 09:56:00 am »

I'm new to FORVM and new to Byzantine coins (I've been collecting Greek and Roman for ~10 years).  I learned about the Anonymous Folles about 9 months ago and have become fascinated with them!  I started buying them and have enjoyed researching them as well.  The Numiswiki Class A Follis Class A Folles' target='_blank'>Ornaments table is wonderful, so I recently started identifying my coins by type.  Of course, this has resulted in me having a ton of questions - and also wondering about a few of my coins. 

I apologize in advance for the length of this post - I think I've pondered these things for too long  Smiley

QUESTIONS PART 1 - Class A Folles' target='_blank'>Class A2 vs. Class A Folles' target='_blank'>Class A3 vs. the 7 Categories in Metcalf
--  I love how Metcalf breaks up the Class A2/A3 into 7 Categories.  However, I only see some references mapping his 7 categories to the more commonly used A2 and A3.  Here is how I've mapped them (can someone please tell me if I got these right?):
             ==>  Metcalf's "Metropolitan" category is all Class A Folles' target='_blank'>CLASS A2
             ==>  Metcalf's "Central Greek" category is all Class A Folles' target='_blank'>CLASS A2
             ==>  Metcalf's "Blundered Inscription" category (types 25-28) are all Class A Folles' target='_blank'>CLASS A2
             ==>  Metcalf's #34 is Class A Folles' target='_blank'>CLASS A2
             ==>  Metcalf's "Secret Marks" category has 2 types - #31 is Class A Folles' target='_blank'>CLASS A2, #32 is Class A Folles' target='_blank'>CLASS A3
             ==>  Metcalf's next category (types 29 and 41-47) are all Class A Folles' target='_blank'>CLASS A3
             ==>  Metcalf's next category (types 24, 33, 39, 40) are mostly Class A Folles' target='_blank'>CLASS A3, with some 39 & 40 coins that are Class A Folles' target='_blank'>CLASS A2 (based on weight)
             ==>  Matcalf mentions type #51, but I don't know if this is A2 or A3.  My assumption is that his reference to #34 means it is Class A Folles' target='_blank'>CLASS A2?
--  I don't see type #35 mentioned anywhere by Metcalf.  Is this a separate category or should be part of one of the others?  Anyone know about the typical weight of those?
--  I think it would it be very helpful to add a column to Pep's table associating each type with Class A Folles' target='_blank'>Class A2 or A3 (where this is known)

QUESTIONS PART 2 - Class A1 vs. Types 2, 3, 4, and 20
--  I'm a purist, so when the rules say "no decoration" on the reverse is the rule to calling it Class A1, that's the rule.  However, I have seen a few coins that seem to have the weight, size, and styling of a class A1, but with a single dot on the top and/or bottom.  Those dots tell me it should be an A2 (large and heavy), but what if everything else screams A1?  Am I being too must of a purist here?  After all, Type 2 has all the markings of an A1 (no decoration on the reverse), but is listed with the "Central Greek" coins, which are large and heavy. 
--  The photos I've attached are of an example of this from my collection.  This coin weighs 6.24 grams and is 23 mm across - it looks just like a couple of my A1's, but has that dot on the top of the reverse, which aligns with type 4 or F20a (both "Central Greek" - or A2).  Can someone please explain?

**  My next questions are about some specific coins I think might be new types.  I'll put those in a different post.

Kevin
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« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2018, 10:21:59 am »

Hey everyone - this is part 2 of my questions.  Now, I'll share some coins from my collection that look like they might be different types.  I'd like to get your thoughts.

Coin #1  (8.41 grams, 31.2 mm)

---  This coin is like type #47, but look closely at the rectangles in the nimbus on the obverse - the dots on the left side of each rectangle are both next to the rectangle (not connected) while the dots on the right side of each rectangle are located at the corners.   
--   Now, look at the rectangle at the bottom of the reverse.  In this case, all of the dots are next to the rectangle (not connected).



Coin #2  (3.01 grams, 26.6 mm)


--- This coin is similar to type #39, but is significantly more ornate than other coins I have seen of this type AND weighs a mere 3.0 grams (by far the lowest of all my Class As).

One more coin in the next post....
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« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2018, 10:25:40 am »

Coin #3  (8.39 grams, 31.5 mm)

This last coin I'll list today looks very strange to me.  The inscription on the reverse looks crude, like a barbaric type.  Possibly a contemporary imitation?


Thanks for looking at these and helping me find some answers!

Kevin
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« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2018, 12:55:37 pm »

You should start over with new threads. One coin per thread.  Trying to talk about three coins in one thread is going to be a mess.
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« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2018, 01:36:08 pm »

Thanks for the tip, Joe.  I'm new to this but definitely don't want to create a mess!

I figured that since they are all Class A folles and the first 2 were about the specific Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornaments on the coins, I would make them part of this "master thread."

Kevin
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« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2018, 11:41:14 am »

His Kevin and welcome.

I agree completely with Joe’s remark that we need separate threads to discuss your coins. Perhaps a moderator could help here?

 You should be aware that one not infrequently finds A2/3 coins which have lower weights either because they’ve been clipped or (more often) because they have been adapted and made smaller for use in jewellery. This can produce weights and diameters similar to A1. ‘No ornamentation’ is still the best distinguishing test in my view.

Bill R.
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« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2018, 08:09:13 pm »

Thank you, Bill.  [By the way, love your Anonymous Follis Gallery - esp the nice Class E and F ones!]

Do you mean completely different threads in the main Byzantine Discussion Room - or different posts within this thread

If a moderator could help do that, I would appreciate it.  If not, I'll make that happen when I have time to recreate them early next week.

Kevin
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« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2018, 09:58:07 pm »

I agree with Bill. Class A1 means absolutely no ornamentation on the reverse, period. 

Classes A2 and A3 can be a bit more difficult to determine at times but A1 is pretty well delineated.
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« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2018, 07:14:19 am »

I just added a new variety to our Anonymous Byzantine Class A Folles page.  This is a new ornaments variety, unlisted by Bellinger and Grierson, with one pellet in each limb of the nimbus cross, two pellets vertically arranged within a jeweled border on the Gospels and the ornamentation shown below under the reverse inscription. The ornamentation above the inscription is off flan but most likely the same as below. We have designated this new variety Grierson-NumisWiki ornaments F1c.





BZ86497. Bronze anonymous follis, Anonymous follis of Christ, class A3; SBCV 1818; Grierson-NumisWiki ornaments F1c, gVF, attractive bust of Christ, tight ragged flan, bumps and marks, edge chip, Constantinople (Istanbul, Turkey) mint, weight 8.514g, maximum diameter 27.9mm, die axis 270o, c. 1023 - 11 Nov 1028 A.D.; obverse + EMMANOVHL, facing bust of Christ, wearing nimbus cruciger, pallium, and colobium, holding gospels with both hands, IC - XC (Greek abbreviation for Jesus Christ) across field; reverse + IhSuS / XRISTuS / bASILEu / bASILE (Jesus Christ King of Kings), ornamentation above and below legend; unpublished variety; $300.00

See Byzantine Anonymous Folles for Sale in the Forum Ancient Coins shop.
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« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2018, 01:57:36 am »

As I read this thread, I recognized, I have an interesting piece, contemporary imitation :

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-117094

B 059 Anonim Follis, SB Huh?, AE-Follis, Class A2 (?), (Ancient (Barbar) Imitation),
(Class A2, attributed to joint reign of Basil II and Constantine VIII.)
averse: +ЄMMΔ VOHΛI instead of +ЄMMA NOVHΛ, IC-XC, Bust of Christ facing, wearing nimbus cross with various ornaments in each limb.. pallium and colobium, and holding books of Gospels.
reverse: +IhSyS / XRISTUS/ bASILEy/bASILE - in 4 lines, Greek legend, "Jesus Christ, King of Kings", all S are "revers" !!!
exergue: -/-//--, diameter: 24,5-26,6mm, weight: 9,04g, axis: 6h,
mint: Ancient (Barbar) Imitation., date: Huh A.D., ref: SB Huh,

Look very similar the "F24a2 crude" but my coin is an imitation or barbaric produced ...

Regards

Q.
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« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2018, 07:57:41 pm »

I wrote an educational web site on Byzantine anonymous folles and posted it today:

http://augustuscoins.com/ed/ByzAnon/

Take a look.
  --  Warren

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« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2018, 11:21:13 pm »

Hi Warren,

Great site, Thank you,

Congratulation,  Thumbs Up

Q.
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« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2018, 09:28:55 am »

Excellent article.  Nice class E. Smiley
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« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2018, 11:27:01 pm »

Very nice site.....lots of good information !!
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