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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Byzantine Coins (Moderators: vercingetorix, wileyc, Paleologos)  |  Topic: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki  (Read 18882 times)
Simon
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« on: May 05, 2004, 06:53:00 pm »

From Catalouge of the Coins found in Corinth 1925  New Haven 1930  taken from Coinage in South-Eastern Europe 820-1396 by D.M. Metcalf.

ADMIN UPDATE  

See class a folles' target='_blank'>Anonymous Byzantine Class A Folles on NumisWiki:  http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Anonymous%20Byzantine%20Class%20A%20Folles

This thread has been modified to highlight its evolved relationship to the NumisWiki page.

Post new Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament variations here!
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http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.
Simon
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2004, 05:45:33 am »

The key.
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http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.
yafet_rasnal
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2004, 01:11:35 pm »

I found an unlisted variety...it has the first two symbols like number 41, but the third like number 29. weight 8.7 - 8.8 g

Christ
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yafet_rasnal
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2004, 01:13:14 pm »

other side
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Simon
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2004, 02:10:29 pm »

I concur, it is not listed with that sheet! Smiley We should check DOC as well. This sheet was written in the first half of the last century. Regardless even if it is  listed it will certainly be rare.

Simon
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http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.
Pep
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2007, 06:12:29 am »

Maybe we could try to prepare a new sheet  Grin

Your wish is granted:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Anonymous%20Byzantine%20Class%20A%20Folles

The illustrations in the original table have been drawn as transparent .gifs.  You can cut-and-paste their URLs and post them between image tags here on the Discussion Board.  A new table can be found below it to document new finds.  It has its own numbering system instead of continuing on with #52 just in case there is a reason the original table is ordered the way it is or if there is already an updated one somewhere with higher numbers.

Enjoy,

Kevin  Smiley
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byzantiumcoins
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2007, 10:33:36 am »

Kevin,

Great !
If you agree, I will send a link to the German NumismatikForum Byzanz -
there are a lot of collectors who are interested in these Rex Regnatium Folles also.
byzantiumcoins

BASIL II Bulgaroktonos ( 976-1025 ) Anonymous Follis with Bust of Christ ( Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament variety A2.50 ) - SEAR 1813
Obverse Bust of Jesus Christ with crescent / 2 pellets in the limbs of the nimbus cross and a single pellet on the book of Gospels
Reverse IhSUS / XRISTUS / BASILEU / BASILE ( JESUS CHRIST KING OF KINGS ) in 4 lines -
horizontal S between strokes above and below



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Pep
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2007, 09:37:53 pm »

Kevin,

Great !
If you agree, I will send a link to the German NumismatikForum Byzanz -
there are a lot of collectors who are interested in these Rex Regnatium Folles also.
byzantiumcoins

Yes, feel free to post the link Smiley  Let me know if any new entries need to be added too.

Kevin  Smiley
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yafet_rasnal
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2007, 01:46:25 am »

A new variety
   
present in Museo Bottacin, Padova, Italy,cat n.429
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byzantiumcoins
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2007, 02:54:46 am »

Is it the same as this one ?
This is a subvariant of the rare Var. 33, though it is slightly diff. from the one pictured in the Bellinger list.

Regards
byzantiumcoins
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yafet_rasnal
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2007, 04:35:28 am »

Is it the same as this one ?
This is a subvariant of the rare Var. 33, though it is slightly diff. from the one pictured in the Bellinger list.

Regards
byzantiumcoins

Nope, it's
REVERSE ORNAMENTAL
NIMBUS
BOOK
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byzantiumcoins
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2007, 04:38:38 am »

very interesting !
Can you supply a foto / scan ?
byzantiumcoins
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yafet_rasnal
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2007, 04:46:48 am »

Here it's. By the way i am preparing a webpage about these oranmentals with photos of coins. Byzantiumcoins, may i use your photos too?
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byzantiumcoins
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2007, 05:17:00 am »

Dear Lorenzo,

Fantastic !
I really have ( and have seen ) quite a few of these variants, but this one is completely new !
Thanks very much for posting it.

Of course you may use my fotos for your site, just mention Byzantiumcoins as the source
I will send you more in a private email.

Wolfgang
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Pep
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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2007, 06:21:42 am »

A new variety
   
present in Museo Bottacin, Padova, Italy,cat n.429

This has been added to the New Varieties Table as "2F".

Is it the same as this one ?
This is a subvariant of the rare Var. 33, though it is slightly diff. from the one pictured in the Bellinger list.

Regards
byzantiumcoins

Is your coin the following?:

Reverse
Nimbus:    
Book:    

Kevin  Smiley
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yafet_rasnal
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« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2007, 08:18:24 am »

I think that Wolfgang coin has one dot on book.
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byzantiumcoins
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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2007, 08:41:04 am »

Yes.
Lorenzo is right - this coin is a completely new mix of Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament varities,
I have only labelled it 33var because of the reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament.

btw I think var 31 and 33a are the same, the 4 "pellets" of 33a are just 4 triangles forming the cross and the arrow is the same thing as the Greek Phi 

look at the 2 fotos of coins in my personal coll.

Wolfgang
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yafet_rasnal
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2007, 09:07:14 am »

So you mean that the nimbus ornamental of Bellinger 33 is the same of Bellinger 31, right? I think it's highly probable, also because there's just one variety with this nimbus (strange).
I also think that the nimbus 43  and 44 has a dot in the center of the X
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byzantiumcoins
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2007, 09:35:26 am »

So you mean that the nimbus ornamental of Bellinger 33 is the same of Bellinger 31, right?

No, not var 33 ! Var. 33 has got nothing to do with these.

Metcalfs Var. 31 and 33a!  are the same, in Bellingers old list of 1928 there was only 31, but no 33a -
It was Metcalf who included 33a in the DOC list whithout having a 33a in the DOC collection.
He quotes the coin in Paris, no. 64 which, unfortunately is not pictured in the Bibliotheque Nationale book.
Mme. Morrison wrote, that Bellinger didn´t know this variant, but I am sure he knew it and listed it as no. 31

Byzantiumcoins 
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yafet_rasnal
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« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2007, 11:07:33 am »

Oooppsss. I thought you were still referring to the Bellinger table  Grin
I never saw a Bellinger 33, so i wonder if the 4 dotted nimbus ornamental is or not the same "cross" of the cross of n.31. What do you think?
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byzantiumcoins
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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2007, 01:38:23 pm »

I have never seen a proper var 33 as desribed by Bellinger and Metcalf either and I wonder if not my 33var is in fact 33 ??
You see this is absolutely one of the most fascinating fields in Byzantine numismatics.
Have you received my email ?

Wolfgang

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cmcdon0923
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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2007, 08:42:28 pm »

Forgive my ignorance on this topic.  While I love the anonymous folles series, the ornamentation classification is a bit new to me.  Among my Class A pieces is this one....if I'm reqading this correctly, I don't see the reverse listed anywhere on the tables.  (I also enjoy the "manus Dei" on the obverse....

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byzantiumcoins
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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2007, 12:42:15 am »

Hello cmcdon0923,

thank you for sharing your coin.
You are completely right, this rare variant is not in the old Bellinger list of Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament varities.
Grierson icluded it into the list when writing the DOC books as nr. 24a -
Since the coins of this variant in the DOC collection are quite worn he could not exactly determine the Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament in the book.
With your specimen and a few other found since the 70ties it is now clear, that Grierson´s Var. 24a has 2 pellets in the nimbus cross,
2 pellets in the book and this floral Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament on the reverse. ( this reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament also occurs on var. 39-40 of Bellingers list )

The "Manus Dei" though it is not a regular varity but a beautiful "coincidence" makes your coin a unique masterpiece.

byzantiumcoins 
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Pep
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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2007, 08:46:57 pm »

Yes.
Lorenzo is right - this coin is a completely new mix of Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament varities,
I have only labelled it 33var because of the reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament.

Ahh, I see now how it's just one dot as I'm fairly new to these types of coins.  OK, this has been christened "3F" in our table so we can avoid confusing labels Grin

btw I think var 31 and 33a are the same, the 4 "pellets" of 33a are just 4 triangles forming the cross and the arrow is the same thing as the Greek Phi 

So there are some different ones in DO too?  Should we create a table for them?  Or should we call this 33a by our own number, if it is worth doing so at all since you believe it to actually be B. 31 (though the Bellinger table was drawn as it was even though B. 33 is in question)?

Hello cmcdon0923,

thank you for sharing your coin.
You are completely right, this rare variant is not in the old Bellinger list of Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament varities.
Grierson icluded it into the list when writing the DOC books as nr. 24a -
Since the coins of this variant in the DOC collection are quite worn he could not exactly determine the Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament in the book.
With your specimen and a few other found since the 70ties it is now clear, that Grierson´s Var. 24a has 2 pellets in the nimbus cross,
2 pellets in the book and this floral Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament on the reverse. ( this reverse Class A Folles' target='_blank'>ornament also occurs on var. 39-40 of Bellingers list )

Since cmcdon0923's coin is 24a in DO, the same question arises, should I create a table for these or add it to our present table of unlisted varieties with a new number?

Kevin  Smiley
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byzantiumcoins
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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2007, 11:03:04 pm »

I will be out of town until tomorrow, so for now only that much: Grierson´s list in DOC is generally accepted and used, even if there may be a few faults, so we should not ignore it.
In general I try not to use completely new numbers, but assign a new variant to the known one that is closest.
Byzantiumcoins

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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Byzantine Coins (Moderators: vercingetorix, wileyc, Paleologos)  |  Topic: Class A Follis Ornaments on NumisWiki « previous next »
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