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Author Topic: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?  (Read 2974 times)

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Offline vs1969

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Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« on: September 19, 2014, 08:07:21 pm »
Just got this as, the reverse seems to be Laetitia, but I was not able to find in RIC any Laetitia asses documented for Lucilla. Searching online sources also brought nothing. 10g, 26mm.

Offline J. B.

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2014, 08:31:46 pm »
Wildwinds:
"Lucilla, AE As. 9.97g; 26mm. 164-166 AD.

Obv: LVCILLAE AVG ANTONINI AVG F, draped bust right.
Rev: unclear legend, Venus standing right, holding apple and sceptre, S-C across fields. cf. RIC 1770; Cohen 80.

This is the only Lucilla coin in RIC which has a deity standing
right holding a sceptre (there is a Diana holding a torch with
both hands). The legend seems to contain ..IT or AT.. and ends
in A, but there are no coins in RIC which have such a legend.
This coin is almost identical to one sold by Noble Coins
Australia with the same description, though that one was a
dupondius).

Courtesy of Roma Numismatics, Sep, 2010"

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/lucilla/RIC_1770cf.jpg

It is your coin.

Best Regards
Jan



Offline J. B.

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2014, 08:44:47 pm »
It could be mule combining Lucilla obverse with Faustna II reverse.
But definitely there is Laetitia on reverse not Venus.

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=469028

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2014, 09:18:05 pm »
I think Johny S is right: a mule with a LAETITIA reverse die meant for Faustina II.

Rome mint mules are rare. This one might help to establish the chronology of Lucilla's and Faustina's respective coinages.

The metal of your coin apparently shows through on the high points. Is it yellow or red? To decide, I recommend comparing with other unpatinated coins that are definitely yellow (sestertii, dupondii) or red (asses).
Curtis Clay

Offline Mat

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2014, 10:31:18 pm »
There is Laetitia reverse of her in Denarius form but rare, it is possible this is maybe a new type of a regular issue thats also very rare?
MY GALLERY

MJB Ancients

Offline vs1969

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2014, 03:03:49 am »
I think Johny S is right: a mule with a LAETITIA reverse die meant for Faustina II.

Rome mint mules are rare. This one might help to establish the chronology of Lucilla's and Faustina's respective coinages.

The metal of your coin apparently shows through on the high points. Is it yellow or red? To decide, I recommend comparing with other unpatinated coins that are definitely yellow (sestertii, dupondii) or red (asses).

Thank you very much for the answer. I have yet to have the coin in hand, will inform after getting it from the dealer.

Offline vs1969

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2014, 03:19:39 am »
Wildwinds:
"Lucilla, AE As. 9.97g; 26mm. 164-166 AD.

Obv: LVCILLAE AVG ANTONINI AVG F, draped bust right.
Rev: unclear legend, Venus standing right, holding apple and sceptre, S-C across fields. cf. RIC 1770; Cohen 80.

This is the only Lucilla coin in RIC which has a deity standing
right holding a sceptre (there is a Diana holding a torch with
both hands). The legend seems to contain ..IT or AT.. and ends
in A, but there are no coins in RIC which have such a legend.
This coin is almost identical to one sold by Noble Coins
Australia with the same description, though that one was a
dupondius).

Courtesy of Roma Numismatics, Sep, 2010"

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/lucilla/RIC_1770cf.jpg

It is your coin.


Thank you for the link and for the possible explanation.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2014, 09:57:16 pm »
Quote from: Mat on September 19, 2014, 10:31:18 pm
There is a Laetitia reverse of her in Denarius form but rare, it is possible this is maybe a new type of a regular issue that's also very rare?

A good idea, but I think that denarius is a slightly different type, and was struck later.

That denarius has Laetitia standing left, holding wreath downwards in r. hand and rudder in left; obv. legend is LVCILLA AVGVSTA. See image below from CoinArchives Pro.

Faustina's type, in contrast, which occurs on denarii and sestertii as well as middle bronzes, has Laetitia standing either l. or r., holding a wreath upwards before her face, and in her other hand not a rudder but a scepter.

This is the type, with the rarer variant of Laetitia standing right, that occurs on Jan's coin, and it is coupled with an earlier obverse of Lucilla than on her LAETITIA denarius illustrated below, with a different coiffure and legend LVCILLAE AVG AN - TONINI AVG F.

So I think Vs1969's coin is a mule with rev. type meant for Faustina II. Lucilla's LAETITIA denarius, in contrast, is a later version of the same type, with different details, that was intentionally struck for Lucilla.
Curtis Clay

Offline J. B.

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 04:09:51 am »
So I think Jan's coin is a mule with rev. type meant for Faustina II.

It's not mine. I've only suggested that it could be mule. :)

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 09:17:17 am »
I've corrected the mistaken name.
Curtis Clay

Offline vs1969

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2014, 02:22:50 pm »
The coin has arrived, it actually has more even patina than it is suggested by the pictures (most of the lighter points are due to the light effects).
On reverse, however, there are two points where the metal can be a bit more visible, the color there is more reddish, so it seems to me more likely
to be made of copper.

Offline vs1969

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Re: Lucilla - As - Laetitia?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2014, 07:56:16 pm »
I have created a gallery entry in the "Unlisted and Unpublished Coins" album, where I tried to provide the information about this coin citing both Wildwinds (Roma numismatic description cited here by Johny Sysel) and this thread (with due respect to both Mr.Johny Sysel and Mr.Curtis Clay).

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-113275

Hope it could be useful; if anything could be improved there, please let me know.

 

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