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Author Topic: Ancient Military Diploma  (Read 4193 times)

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Offline Nemonater

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Ancient Military Diploma
« on: September 15, 2014, 09:04:25 pm »
I just received delivery of this diploma fragment.  Unusually well preserved, now the hunt to decipher the writing! Any help is greatly appreciated!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-112619


Nemo

Offline SC

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2014, 11:22:28 am »
Interesting example.  Though the writing style looks quite good the reverse writing is not offset 90 degrees as is usually the case.

Shawn
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(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline benito

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2014, 11:58:21 am »
AFAIK its always the case. Personally I have never seen  a diploma in which the  writing of the outer and inner sides of tabula I or II is not offset 90 degrees  against the other side.

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2014, 04:26:38 pm »
Sooo..... either this is an extremely unusual piece or a forgery.  The seller is well known and respected, I'll email them the concern and see what they say.  I have no experience with these at all so any opinions are appreciated.

Nemo

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 02:17:01 am »
Interesting piece as it does look authentic.  I hadn't really taken note of the 90 degree offset until this thread.  Just checked and mine is:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-85615

Curtis helped with a possible translation of mine which seems reasonable.

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 09:54:04 am »
Interesting piece as it does look authentic.  I hadn't really taken note of the 90 degree offset until this thread.  Just checked and mine is:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-85615

Curtis helped with a possible translation of mine which seems reasonable.

Yeah, I've looked at many examples and they're all at 90 degrees.  I never noticed it either. 

Does anyone know if Andreas from RomanCoins.info is still around?  I sent him a couple of emails with no response. Not that he needs to answer me but his website on military diplomas asks for submissions of diplomas. He seems to be an authority on the subject.

I also hope to hear back from the seller sometime today.

Thanks,

Nemo

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2014, 08:47:55 pm »
Does anyone know if Andreas from RomanCoins.info is still around?  I sent him a couple of emails with no response. Not that he needs to answer me but his website on military diplomas asks for submissions of diplomas. He seems to be an authority on the subject.
He is still there . I talked to him two weeks ago . It may take several weeks . Three weeks and few emails have been for me, but waiting is worth it . Also want to thank Shawn again for helping me with my fragment .
Regards ,
Vlad .

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2014, 09:42:39 pm »
He is still there . I talked to him two weeks ago . It may take several weeks . Three weeks and few emails have been for me, but waiting is worth it . Also want to thank Shawn again for helping me with my fragment .
Regards ,
Vlad .

Thanks Vlad. I sent him a couple emails with no answer yet so I'll just be patient. I have a couple other leads that I'm following up on as well.

I did get a response from the seller who said they believe the fragment to be authentic. Writing style and patina "Absolutely convincing" and "No reasons to doubt the piece."  I feel their answer was fair and non-defensive. He mentioned that he wasn't an expert on diplomas specifically but has a degree in Roman Archaeology. He was interested in hearing whatever I was able to find about the fragment.

Here are a couple more pictures that show the dimensions of the letters, I don't know if that makes a lot of difference.

Offline stultus

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 09:33:35 am »
The first photo is the outer side of the second tablet with the name of the witnesses (only the end of the third names - cognomen - is visible).
The second photo is the second part of the edict's text with the consular dating. The second line is [...] DER PIVS FELIX AVG indicates, that it was issued in a consular year of Severus Alexander.

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 03:26:45 pm »
The first photo is the outer side of the second tablet with the name of the witnesses (only the end of the third names - cognomen - is visible).
The second photo is the second part of the edict's text with the consular dating. The second line is [...] DER PIVS FELIX AVG indicates, that it was issued in a consular year of Severus Alexander.


Thank you stultus.

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2014, 09:59:58 pm »
I just received word from a highly respected authority at Oxford University that this is an authentic fragment and a rarer type at that.  I'm compiling many more details, but I wanted to share my good news!

I would also like to again express appreciation for those who raised the issues with this piece that I should have noticed before the purchase! These issues will be addressed in a later post.

Nemo

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2014, 10:19:53 pm »
Congratulations +++

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2014, 11:26:23 pm »
I look forward to hearing more!

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2014, 05:26:59 pm »
Very nice examples ... ;)
We are waiting for a final conclusion ... ::)

 Congratulation.. +++
 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2014, 06:39:37 pm »
Thanks Jay, Q, and everyone else who has been so supportive. Here are the results:

The short story can be found by simply reading the description that’s been added to the photo in my gallery.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-112619

The long story is as follows.

After buying this fragment, I was thrilled to add it to my collection.  I found however that reading 2000 year old Latin engraved in bronze plate was more difficult than I imagined.  Then Shawn and Benito pointed out that the engraving was not at the typical 90 degree angle.  Added to that, after examining several other diplomas, I found the striations on the one side odd as well.

Basically it came down to:
Patina and lettering = Authentic
Atypical letter orientation, weird striations and no provenance = Fake

At this point I was kicking myself for not doing research BEFORE making a purchase. What a thought!

But then, a ray of hope! Stultus is able to name the Emperor, Severus Alexander!

This focused my research and I was able to find other diploma's of Elagabalus and Severus Alexander with identical striations. A bit of relief.

Further searching brought me to a fantastic scholar in the Classics Faculty in Oxford who has worked with other high profile Alexander diplomas. (And modestly would like to remain anonymous.)

After explaining the concerns, here are the relevant parts of his response in quotes:

“The witnesses' names are usually inscribed at right-angles to the 'inner' text on the other face of Tablet II, but on very few diplomas they are inscribed on the outside of Tablet I, with the 'inner' text (duplicating the 'outer', visible text) inscribed on the other face. I think yours must be an example, since the writing looks all right to me.  The main text contains part of the usual formulas for Alexander Severus.

In the lines below, there is enough to show that the recipient was a veteran of the Praetorian Guard, who was granted the right of contracting a legal Roman marriage.

As far as the dating of the diploma is concerned, line three reads: COS III, preceded by II, the last two digits of the TRIB POT number. He became COS III in 229, and remained this until his death in 235, so the possible years are 229 (TRIB POT VIII), 230 (VIIII), 233 (XII), 234 (XIII) and 235 (XIIII).”

I (Nemo) then spent some time translating the Latin text he provided into English seen below in quotes.  (I didn't know that the next morning he would send me another email.)

... M]AGNI II FIL
“Son of Magnus Pius”
... ALEXAN]DER PIVS FELIX AVG
Alexander Pius Felix Augustus
... TRIB POT?]II COS III P P
“In the ? year of Tribunician or Conul power, Pater Patriae
... MI]LITAVERVNT IN
“Who served in”
... SE]VERIANIS DECEM
“Ten Severan
... ] PIIS VINDICIBVS
“Loyal and Avenging”
... MILI]TIA FVNCTI SVNT
“Performed their military function”
... ] CVM SINGV
“With one”
?LIS ... ETIA]M SI PEREGRI
“Even if foreign”

The next morning the following was in my inbox:

"The underlined portions are the words that are visible on the fragment:

'The Emperor Caesar, son of the deified Antoninus Pius the Great [i.e. 'Caracalla'], grandson of Severus Pius [i.e. Septimius Severus], Marcus Aurellius [thus usually written] Severus Alexander Pius Felix ['happy'] Augustus, Pontifex Maximus, in the [...]th year of his Tribunician Power, Consul three times [i.e. 229 or later: see above], Father of his Country. The names of the soldiers who have served in the ten Severan Praetorian Cohorts (numbered) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Pius Vindex ['dutiful, avenging'], who have dutifully and bravely completed their service, (to them) I have granted the right of Roman marriage, provided it is with one woman only and she their first wife, so that even if they marry women of non-Roman status ...'"

That's it for now. Anyone want to guess the five coins that are now on my want list?

Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2014, 06:52:02 pm »
Hi Nemo ...
It is really great... +++

Thank you for this post..

Best regards
 Q.
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2014, 10:21:14 pm »
Quote from: quadrans on September 28, 2014, 06:52:02 pm
Hi Nemo ...
It is really great... +++

Thank you for this post..

Best regards
 Q.

Thanks Q,

What I think is so interesting about this piece is to think of what this soldier must have been involved with over his 25 year service. 

He would have lived through the year of the five emperors. He probably joined the military under Septimius Severus and enjoyed the added power and wealth given to the army during his reign.

Did he conspire with Macrinus to assassinate Caracalla?

He certainly had to endure Elagabalus' outrageous behavior till this soldier finally had enough. When he heard the rumor that Severus Alexander was dying or near death, he and the rest of the Praetorian Guard rioted and demanded to see Alexander. Refusing to stand down, Elagabalus and his mother reluctently escorted 13 year old Alexander to the Praetorian camp where this soldier cheered at seeing him alive and joined the rest in proclaiming Alexander Caesar. When Elagabalus corrected the guards mistake, they corrected him by ridding his body of his head and throwing him into the Tiber.

Perhaps this soldier enjoyed some peace during Alexander's rule till his retirement.  Living out his days with his foreign, but legal, wife as granted by his diploma.

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2014, 08:55:29 pm »
Does anyone know if Andreas from RomanCoins.info is still around?  I sent him a couple of emails with no response. Not that he needs to answer me but his website on military diplomas asks for submissions of diplomas. He seems to be an authority on the subject.
He is still there . I talked to him two weeks ago . It may take several weeks . Three weeks and few emails have been for me, but waiting is worth it . Also want to thank Shawn again for helping me with my fragment .
Regards ,
Vlad .

FWIW, I just heard back from Andreas. He too confirmed the authenticity of the diploma and is looking to see if there is anything he can add or piece together.  I would love to nail down the exact date it was issued. We shall see!

Nemo

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2014, 11:06:26 pm »
That's great news.  I never heard back from him about my diploma fragment...

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2014, 09:27:24 pm »
That's great news.  I never heard back from him about my diploma fragment...

I wouldn't worry about that much.  After several weeks I got a one sentence reply and nothing since. 

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2014, 02:33:32 pm »
Hi all,

Yes, 'Andreas' is still around (me), and no worries, all Roman military fragments are carefully considered, and analyzed, it just takes a while as we are doing this part time and there are quite few in the waiting list.
If any of you want to resend please do so.

More obvious authentic vs fake advice I can give quicker, usually it is obvious to me from fotos, the fakers are not as sophisticated as with coins, if not I will also let you know that :-)

Greets, Andreas

PS: good I just joined this forum and looked around in no-coins :-)

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2014, 10:03:59 pm »
Hi all,

Yes, 'Andreas' is still around (me), and no worries, all Roman military fragments are carefully considered, and analyzed, it just takes a while as we are doing this part time and there are quite few in the waiting list.
If any of you want to resend please do so.

More obvious authentic vs fake advice I can give quicker, usually it is obvious to me from fotos, the fakers are not as sophisticated as with coins, if not I will also let you know that :-)

Greets, Andreas

PS: good I just joined this forum and looked around in no-coins :-)

Hi Andreas and welcome to the forum!

Your diploma page is outstanding, thanks for the time it's taken to put it together and maintain it.  I think the scarcity of experts in this field makes us extremely eager to hear back from someone of your expertise.

Nemo

Offline Vladislav D

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Re: Ancient Military Diploma
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2014, 10:07:16 pm »
Hi all,

Yes, 'Andreas' is still around (me), and no worries, all Roman military fragments are carefully considered, and analyzed, it just takes a while as we are doing this part time and there are quite few in the waiting list.
If any of you want to resend please do so.

More obvious authentic vs fake advice I can give quicker, usually it is obvious to me from fotos, the fakers are not as sophisticated as with coins, if not I will also let you know that :-)

Greets, Andreas

PS: good I just joined this forum and looked around in no-coins :-)

Hi Andreas and welcome to the forum!

Your diploma page is outstanding, thanks for the time it's taken to put it together and maintain it.  I think the scarcity of experts in this field makes us extremely eager to hear back from someone of your expertise.

Nemo
Welcome to the forum Andreas  +++
Regards ,
Vlad .

 

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