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Author Topic: Denarii of the Late Republic  (Read 3487 times)

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Offline Bud Stewart

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Denarii of the Late Republic
« on: July 27, 2014, 02:02:40 pm »
I'm finally discovering a "focus".

While I still enjoy collecting & studying all the Roman denarii, I’m growing especially fond of those minted after Caesar crossed the Rubicon in 49BC through the early years of Augustan Era.  It is true that the denarii of this period tend to be expensive, but I’ve been very fortunate to acquire a few recently that I’m very proud of:

C. Vibius C.f. C.n. Pansa Caetronianus – Vibia-16
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-110897

A Licinius Nerva – Licinia-24a
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-110387

P Clodius Mf Turrinus – Claudia-17
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-108207


I’ve also recently added David R. Sear’s “The History and Coinage of the Roman Imperators”.  While this acquisition was long overdue, it has become the favorite volume in my library.

I'm hoping to be able to use this thread to explore the history & coinage of this most fascinating era.  I have much to learn and I'm confident that my FORVM Mates will educate me.

Please share your thoughts & knowledge with me.



Offline Bud Stewart

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2014, 04:35:06 pm »
There are many reasons for my interest in the coinage of this Era.  “The Death Throes of the Republic”  feature some of the most famous & infamous characters of the Ancient Word (Caius Julius Caesar, Marcus Antonius, Gaius Octavius, Marcus Junius Brutus, Marcus Tullius Cicero, etc.) many of which are represented directly, but quite often via the ‘iconography’ on the coins. The turmoil of this Era was a catalyst of some very interesting and diverse coinage designs. 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2014, 07:11:44 am »
Quote from: Bud Stewart on July 27, 2014, 04:35:06 pm
There are many reasons for my interest in the coinage of this Era.  “The Death Throes of the Republic”  feature some of the most famous & infamous characters of the Ancient Word (Caius Julius Caesar, Marcus Antonius, Gaius Octavius, Marcus Junius Brutus, Marcus Tullius Cicero, etc.) many of which are represented directly, but quite often via the ‘iconography’ on the coins. The turmoil of this Era was a catalyst of some very interesting and diverse coinage designs.  

Bud

I wanted to take the time to reply properly to your vocation in Imperatorial coins, and your new found evangelistic zeal for same. Needless to say, I am unable to add any encouraging words that would improve your motivations, you are already there and there's nothing to improve on. What I can do is give some practical advice on collecting Imperatorial coins, which I've accumulated over a long time.

This is, unusually for me, the first time, ever, that I've written on this subject, so bear with me whilst I disentangle various confused and random thoughts, in no particular order.

1. Most Imperatorial coin types are very common because they were struck in vast quantities to pay armies
2. Because they were struck in a hurry in vast quantities, most Imperatorial coin types are badly made, engraved in poor style, offstruck and flat struck
3. Because of military necessity, many issues were struck in slightly debased silver that selectively corrodes, often resulting in poor surfances
4. Because of this, Imperatorial coins in fine style, centred, fully struck and with good surfaces, are often very rare and fetch very high prices.
5. Some specific Imperatorial coin types that relate to the losing sides in battles (Pharsalus, Phillipi, Thapsus) are commonly found in fresh struck condition ex hoards. This applies to nearly all the Brutus and Cassius types, and the types of the Pompeian forces in Africa, but also some Caesarian issues, e.g. the Venus, Aeneas and Anchises type. It doesn't apply to the Antony and Octavian types as they generally evade direct confrontations in battle during their triumvirate
6. Most of the late moneyers fractions, quinarii and sestertii, are very rare. But not all. The three C's: Considia, Carisia and Cordia, each issued sestertii that are common enough. The quinarii of the Imperators (not moneyers) are also common enough
7. There are a few exceptionally rare Imperatorial denarii types, probably a couple of dozen. These are a tiny proportion of the many hundreds of denarius types, most of which, including most of the Julius Caesar portraits, are very common indeed. But there are some scarce Caesar portrait types hidden among the mostly common.

So, what to make of this. A wise collector will accumulate his own reserve of information about the coins and their condition and availability, and use it to guide purchases. Here are some of my takeaways

8. Because Caesar portraits are usually badly engraved, flat struck and offstruck, seek out worn but well centred specimens of reasonably nice style or a flat struck coin where the flatness is at the back of Caesar's head or the lower part of the Venus reverse. I attach below a picture of a perfect Caesar portrait for a collector, which I bought recently. It's worn, actually in Fine condition, but perfectly centred on a large flan in good silver, with a bold portrait of Caesar and the reverse flatness is concentrated on the unimportant lettering behind Venus, whereas Victory is nicely struck up. Compare that to the EF, or perhaps Mint State Caesar below it. The reverse flatness is in the worst place, cutting across the Victory and the top of Venus, the offstrike both sides is unattractive and the bright surfaces and flatness on Caesar's head obscures his portrait. The Fine condition coin is not only the nicer, it was also much the cheaper, and you can make such choices too.

9. Find out which Caesar portraits are actually rare, including the seated Venus on the denarius of Buca, the Maridianus denarius type with Venus (surprisingly, the Maridianus AAAFF crossed legend is much commoner), the Cr.485 Flaminius issue, and of course, the Mettius Dict Quart issue with chariot. Be prepared to bid strongly for a nicely worn example of any of the rarer types. Most collectors are clueless about which these are!

10. Try find reasonable sestertii of the 3 C's Considia, Cordia, Carisia, and don't worry about the rest. Don't believe dealers fluff if he says these types are rare, they aren't. If you see any outside these three types (also moneyers quinarii) they are usually genuinely rare and worth going all out for

11. Metal quality is key with Mark Antony legionaries. You'll find unending numbers of reasonable condition legionaries with scrappy surfaces. If you can find some pleasantly worn examples on good smooth metal which also tones nicely, go for them in preference to better condition coins with surface issues. This is a series where it's better to have a few nice-metal examples than a complete run with surface problems

12. Brutus and Cassius: either buy hoard coins (mint state) or pleasantly worn examples with nice surfaces and no corrosion. The same advice applies to the Pompeian (Cato, Scipio) issues at Thapsus. Sometimes the hoard coins have external damage ("spade marks") and can be good buys for the types. I once owned an EF example of a Scipio, Crassus type with a terrible cut on the Victory side, but the important Sekmet side basically untouched.

13. The Rome mint moneyers coins of 46 to 41 BC are invariably flat struck or offstruck. Just accept that as given, and try find examples whose flatness isn't a detraction. i recently bought the third coin below, a denarius of Considia. Yes there is some flatness, on the diadem and behind the chariot, but once you look past that you see a coin in fine style in absolutely mint state and with the flatness in the least important places. High end collectors ignored it, and it was inexpensive, but I wonder when a high end collector will ever find a better example than this?

14. Style, style, style. If there are several engraving styles for an issue, learn to recognise the very best style and wait to buy until you find a coin in that finest style. My Fulvia portrait below is in absolutely the finest style, as good as that on coins that fetch tens of thousands of dollars. The seller priced it modestly, only noticing the flatness and the wear to Fine condition. Get to know the issues and wait for the fine style engraver to pop up.

15. Some issues just always come in bad style and can be very cheap because sellers think the coins ugly, but don't realise that they are all ugly. An example below, bottom coin, is a Cnaeus Pompey denarius of the Pietas series, bought for a modest amounf for a seller who had no idea that this was about as beautiful as this coin type comes. In fact I later discovered this to have an important old provenance (Knobloch) and was the best example he could get. So, get to know the ugly coin types!

16. Beware of tooled bronzes of the Imperatorial era. Many apparently nicer ones are tooled. Better a nice smooth good Fine.

17. Everytime you see an Imperatorial type with a trophy reverse, look carefully. Several new examples are sold each day, and 99.9% of the time, they will be one of these types: 452/2, 468/1 or 468/2, 506/2, 511/2, 536 or the Octavian type with naval trophy. One time in a thousand it might be 452/4 or 452/5 or 482/1 or 503/1 or 504/1 or 505/5 or 510/1. Any of these are immensely rarer, by a factor of 100 or 1000 than the common types.

18. Same advice applies to Pompey portraits. Very common: 511. Extremely rare: 470 (Minatia) and 477 (Pietas). Watch for them. Also extremely rare, the 511 type with exergue legend ORAE MARIT ET CLAS SC. I've advised above which are the rarer Caesar portraits, and the less rare fractions (by exception all others are rare).

19. Consider extending the start date of your collecting interests back to the time of Cicero or even Sulla. You add in many amazing Imperators and politicians who struck or were featured on coins, or who inspired coin types (Sulla, Marius, Cicero, Crassus, early issues of Brutus and Cassius, the infamous Clodia gens etc). The reverse types in the period from Sulla's death to 50 BC are also the most interesting in the Roman Republic.

20. Imperatorial coins can be a rich man's playground. But you can get far nicer coins than the high end collectors are buying, for far lower prices, through knowledge of the typical strike, surfaces and styles of each issue. With knowledge you can know how to choose coins of better style, preferable strikes and better surfaces but in beautiful Fine rather than in ugly EF, and overall much more beautiful coins. So what if your beautiful coins are not valued by the marketplace? You'll know better where real beauty and value lies.

Andrew

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2014, 11:42:33 am »
I suppose this is as much a question for Andrew as for general consideration but I was was surprised there was not a specific numbered point on the matter:

3a.  Imperatorial coins seem to be found with a higher than usual proportion of fourree or plated examples.  Why?  While low grade ones are obvious, buyers of high grade coins need to be aware of their telltale signs if accidental purchase is to be avoided.


Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2014, 12:57:31 pm »
I suppose this is as much a question for Andrew as for general consideration but I was was surprised there was not a specific numbered point on the matter:

3a.  Imperatorial coins seem to be found with a higher than usual proportion of fourree or plated examples.  Why?  While low grade ones are obvious, buyers of high grade coins need to be aware of their telltale signs if accidental purchase is to be avoided.



I didn't comment as I no longer collect plated coins as I don't generally regard them as official mint products; I have a few but they are space fillers for very rare types. I think what you observe may have three causes

- higher retention by sellers and collectors of these desirable plated Imperatorial types. I suspect plated coins from earlier years are under-represented as since you can buy an ordinary common good silver denarius in F-VF for $25, plated coins essentially have no value.

- there may have been, for reasons unknown but maybe associated with more sophisticated financial familiarity among the poor, growing activity in making false plated coins

- there may have been sporadic incidents under siege conditions of an Imperator, invariably one about to lose his head, stretching his last reserves of silver by making some plated coins. Possible examples include Cornuficius and Scarpus, for both of whom there's a high proportion of plated coins even by Imperstorial standards (I must as usual emphasise that I totally reject any possibility of a large scale ongoing mint such as at Rome resorting to such tactics even sporadically as its far more efficient on a long term basis to debase a fraction, reduce weight a fraction, or simply pay people less.)

I would be guessing if I speculated on the mix of the above three factors, but I'm going to guess anyway. My guess is that commercial forces in the ancient coin market i.e. The first of the three factors, is by far the largest. I suspect the last factor, exigencies under siege, is real but minor in volume as it mainly seems to have applied to rare coins. The middle factor, changing economic conditions, is unknowable and could as easily have been negative as positive.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2014, 01:58:12 pm »
I was not suggesting you collect or accept plated coins as official but believe that ignoring their existence is a good way to find beginners owning them without knowing even the term.  I find humor, however, in the argument that plated coins were not made by ongoing and official mints.  Neither were the solid silver coins for many issues of this period.  Who made coins for these Imperators in the field?  How do we know there were travelling mints rather than contractors?  I can not rule out the possibility that coins of one Imperator could have been produced by supporters of his rivals.  I am not proposing that EID MAR fourrees were made by Octavian but his position certainly would be strengthened by every Roman who thought of Brutus as a crook as well as a murderer.   I will never see these questions answered even if there were people studying the questions of unofficial coinages.  Will people a century/millennium from now (or will these coins even exist then)?

The matter of fourrees of common coins being worthless in the market certainly has merit.  Are there any coins (not just Republicans) that are unknown in silver but survive in fourree or for which the majority of survivors are plated?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2014, 02:20:09 pm »
I was not suggesting you collect or accept plated coins as official but believe that ignoring their existence is a good way to find beginners owning them without knowing even the term.  I find humor, however, in the argument that plated coins were not made by ongoing and official mints.  Neither were the solid silver coins for many issues of this period.  Who made coins for these Imperators in the field?  How do we know there were travelling mints rather than contractors?  I can not rule out the possibility that coins of one Imperator could have been produced by supporters of his rivals.  I am not proposing that EID MAR fourrees were made by Octavian but his position certainly would be strengthened by every Roman who thought of Brutus as a crook as well as a murderer.   I will never see these questions answered even if there were people studying the questions of unofficial coinages.  Will people a century/millennium from now (or will these coins even exist then)?

The matter of fourrees of common coins being worthless in the market certainly has merit.  Are there any coins (not just Republicans) that are unknown in silver but survive in fourree or for which the majority of survivors are plated?

Doug,

On the latter point, the denarii of Cornuficius, as well as perhaps the very last denarius of Scarpus Crawford 546/7 (but not 546/6) seem to me to occur plated in proportions that about match the known solid silver examples of these very rare types. The incidence is far higher than for example with the EID MAR, where plated coins of the correct style are very rare as compared to the relatively numerous (about 100 known) good silver examples.

On the first point, my neglect of plated coins may not only be because I'm done collecting but also because I'm done studying them! All I've got to say can be found on http://andrewmccabe.ancients.info/Plated.html

PS I do agree wholeheartedly with Doug that if you welcome plated coins in your collection then some.of the rarest Imperatorial types can become affordable and accessible. My own plated coins include Caesar's Dream of Sulla, Crawford 480/1, a type I've never been able to afford in as good quality in solid silver, and. Cornuficius.

Andrew

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2014, 06:26:00 am »
Bud Stewart enthusiastically started this thread, and there's been some lengthy replies by Doug and I. So this is just a bump for the thread in case Bud didn't yet notice what we've been writing!

Offline Bud Stewart

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2014, 12:18:26 pm »
You are correct Andrew, I've been out of town and away from my computer these past few days.  When I finally had a moment to login to the FORVM, I was absolutely delighted to see your comments & Doug responses.  Thanks very much Gentlemen.

Offline Ted

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2014, 06:43:24 pm »
It should be noted that Andrew's idea of "common" differs from many other definitions of the term, and I frequently find his use of the term to equate to "not rare", or "in this specific area, the most common". The sestertii of the three Cs he mentions range in Sydenham rarity from 5-8, for example, 5 being "very scarce", 8 being "extremely rare"; on the other hand, at least some of them show up with some limited regularity (the hound Carisius I own, formerly Andrew's, is one of seven that show up on AC Search with the search "caris* sestert*"; there is also a panther Carisius that shows up in a single example), which makes the hound relatively common, and more common than the non- three C sestertii mentioned. If your pockets are deep enough, I suppose this may make them common for you as well.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2014, 07:27:29 pm »
I've found that there's almost no relationship between rarity and price when it comes to coins series where all types are generally rare (such as Roman Republican bronzes, or later Imperatorial sestertii). That allows someone with more knowledge than the average bidder to look for arbitrage opportunities as it were, holding off bidding on a nice Carisia type with hound (as another will appear sometime soon) but instead trying to get a worse condition great rarity for a bargain price.

I agree that with all the coin types that have passed through my hands, I've become a little jaded to rarity. Seven examples on acsearch is indeed best described as "not very rare", rather than as "fairly common".

Offline Bud Stewart

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2015, 11:24:42 am »
I’m presenting here a pair of coins that tell a tale of a person’s loyalty to a cause.  Quintus Sicinius was a Republican moneyer in 49 BC.

After Caesar crossed the Rubicon and marched on Rome Q. Sicinius remained true to the ‘status quo’ and produced this denarius which featured devices that alluded to the Republic’s “savior” Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus.  The coin is an expression of confidence, or perhaps hope, of a victory over the usurper Gaius Julius Caesar

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-122410


With Caesar approaching, Pompey, along with most of the Senate, evacuated Rome.   Q. Sicinius followed the ‘legitimate government’.  He continued to act as moneyer in exile.  Along with C. Coponius, Sicinius produced this denarius purportedly for the purpose of paying the Pompeian troops in the field (and serving in the fleet).

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-90990

Offline orfew

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2015, 12:04:58 pm »
Although I am by no means an expert, I found this conversation very interesting. I picked up a Claudius denarius recently. Although just anecdotal based on my search for a Claudius denarius, i noticed that seem to be many fourees around while the real silver ones seem to be quite scarce. Is this a result of some of the reasons mentioned above, or are there other reasons why these fourees are more abundant?

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2015, 01:10:58 pm »
Just an opinion:  Why are there so many?   Because they were profitable to make.  Plated coins are most profitable when they copy issues in good silver and become increasingly more trouble than they are worth as the real thing is debased.  At some point it would just be easier to make unofficial billons.  That could explain why Caligula and Claudius fourrees outnumber solid coins which would be more likely to be melted down.  I also believe that plated issues would be more successful when the real thing was less well known to the man on the street.  A coin that looks off in some way would be more likely questioned if it were a well known type than a style people might expect to be of poor workmanship.  None of this explains why there are so many Antony Legionary fourrees.  They were relatively poor silver and profit could be made making them even years after Antony stopped making the real thing.  I have seen no proof or even study showing that false coins date to the same years as the genuine product rather than a generation later.  The general attitude of scholars has always been that the things are false and not worth studying.  The fact is that a certain number of coins spent on any given day were false so these are part of the economic system if not part of the official mint.  My original criticism of their not being mentioned is that collectors who do not know any better can easily be fooled by coins that seem obvious to those who study a bit more.  I own a number of poor quality plated coins with core exposure for which I paid very low prices because real collectors won't touch them.  I wonder what happened to the plated coins which were not worn or damaged enough to show the core.  Experts like Andrew will sense them by style, fabric or feel that come with having handled thousands of coins.  Small time dealers who know little and the customers they service are quite likely the owners of these coins. 

I am not a Republican scholar and my example is from another period that I know no better but happen to have.  The Alexander tetradrachm below is clearly plated and underweight (13.8g).  There exists a die duplicate of this coin that weighs less than my fourree but is higher grade.  I have twice notified dealers selling it that they should check the coin for this 'problem'.  Who owns it now?  Do they know?  (please post a photo if it is yours.) How many of you have EF coins that show no core but would if they were more circulated?  90% of ancient coins are not owned by experts in that particular area.  I would love to know how many 'secret' fourrees are in collections.  Certainly this is why we always suggest you know the coin or know the dealer but even the big dealers are going to miss some of these. 

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2015, 01:18:00 pm »
http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/counterfeit-one-pound-coins

The above link says that 3% of British one pound coins in circulation are fakes.  What number do you think existed 2000 years ago in Rome?  3%?  30%???  Do you think the number varied when broken down by type and issuer? 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2015, 03:07:27 pm »
http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/counterfeit-one-pound-coins

The above link says that 3% of British one pound coins in circulation are fakes.  What number do you think existed 2000 years ago in Rome?  3%?  30%???  Do you think the number varied when broken down by type and issuer?  

Less than 3%. Maybe 1%.

The Cosa hoard of 2000 denarii had I think 4 plated coins which would be 0.2%. That was a pre-checked group. But an argument from silence tells us the number was very low indeed. Were it larger, there would have been felt a need for hacked test marks. Apart from Spain (where they didn't know enough to yet know that Roman coins were absolutely trustworthy), we never see edge cuts or hacked cuts on Republican or early Empire silver. That tells me there were so few forgeries, and the quality of the coinage was so very high (metal and engraving quality) that there was no need for invasive testing. And hoards seem to back them up. Plated and debased silver imitations are essentially absent from hoards and that shows that forgeries were easily detected.

I'd cite an ancient and a modern analogy to explain the difference with UK pounds. The ancient analogy is Claudian imitative asses. Modern pound coins have probably about the same buying power as an ancient as or sestertius. We know such bronzes were widely imitated and no one really cared. Likewise with pounds. An automated till at Sainsbury spat out a fake pound coin that I'd intended to use today. I shrugged, added another genuine coin and used the fake to buy a newspaper. The modern analogy is £20 notes. The proportion of fake £20 notes in circulation is very low - less than 1% and probably much less. The genuine notes are so evidently such high quality, and they are of such value, that a fake is unlikely to escape notice. Additionally most of us get most our note from ATMs, pre vetted. Just as Romans would have got them from nummumarius vetted tally bags.

So a pound coin is like a Claudian as, and as widely forged. An ancient early denarius is akin to a £20 note and as rarely forged.

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2015, 04:35:39 pm »
You may be correct but we can never agree on the matter if you equate hoard contents with circulating coins.  If you have two coins and one is questionable, you save the good one and pass off the bad on on whoever will accept it.  Gresham's law specifies that it is the good coins that are removed from circulation.  Obviously there would be people forming hoards who knew no difference or did not care but remembering back to 1965 when the US replaced silver coins with copper nickel ones, even my mother was stashing the silver ones and spending the new ones.  She was not a coin collector.  I wonder if the average British schoolboy has the full 3% fakes in his piggy bank or if those get spent first.  Nothing can be proven. 


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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2015, 04:45:17 pm »
You may be correct but we can never agree on the matter if you equate hoard contents with circulating coins.  If you have two coins and one is questionable, you save the good one and pass off the bad on on whoever will accept it.  Gresham's law specifies that it is the good coins that are removed from circulation.  Obviously there would be people forming hoards who knew no difference or did not care but remembering back to 1965 when the US replaced silver coins with copper nickel ones, even my mother was stashing the silver ones and spending the new ones.  She was not a coin collector.  I wonder if the average British schoolboy has the full 3% fakes in his piggy bank or if those get spent first.  Nothing can be proven. 



I didn't equate hoard content with circulating coin. I used the argument from silence (lack of drastic control measures) as the evidence of circulating coin.

The hoard evidence just provides a Lower end backstop (ie the rate in circulation must exceed 0.2%) as well as providing evidence that in expert hands, fakes were easily detected. So I would hypothesise a higher level in circulation than hoards - perhaps as much as 10 times ie 2%. But not 100 times greater as the evident ease of professional detection and the lack of really drastic test cuts would obviate such high levels.

I think 1% or 2% is reasonable.


Offline lawrence c

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Re: Denarii of the Late Republic
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2015, 01:57:29 pm »
Nothing substantive on my part to add, but would like to thank everyone for a fascinating discussion.  These types of boards are how newbies like me start getting a grasp.
Best
Larry

 

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