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Author Topic: maximanius follis?  (Read 1313 times)

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52CoinPickup

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maximanius follis?
« on: July 21, 2014, 10:31:45 pm »
Also I am not sure if this is a follis of Maximianus?  The mintmarks seem strange to me.

Offline Trimalchio

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Re: maximanius follis?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2014, 01:22:42 am »
Hi,

you are right, it's Maximianus (Herculeus) RIC V-2 622 Antioch:

IMP C M AVR VAL MAXIMIANVS PF AVG
Radiate and cuirassed bust right

IOV ET HERCV CONSER AVGG
Jupiter facing right holding globe and sceptre, facing Hercules facing left, holding Victory on globe, club and lion's skin

Mintmark: crescent over Z in field
XXI in ex.

there are very useful excel lists for these:
http://www.catbikes.ch/coinstuff/coins-ric.htm
for this one scroll down to "IOVI.. the others"

Offline djmacdo

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Re: maximanius follis?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2014, 10:02:20 am »
Size?  Weight?

Offline Constantine IV

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Re: maximanius follis?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2014, 11:29:44 am »
It's a type officially known as a "Post Reform (replacing the Antoninianus) Radiate Fraction".
"He who gives himself airs of importance, exhibits the credentials of impotence". ~ Decimus Laberius, 46 BCE

52CoinPickup

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Re: maximanius follis?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2014, 12:59:49 pm »
My ruler is in inches, I lost the millimeter ruler.

Also, my scale does not go into the tenths and hundredths place.

Would you like a weight rounded to the gram?  Would that be helpful?

Offline dougsmit

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Re: maximanius follis?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2014, 08:04:41 pm »
It's a type officially known as a "Post Reform (replacing the Antoninianus) Radiate Fraction".

No, the coin is an antoninianus  (pre-reform).  Trimalchio's ID is correct.  Post reform radiates are covered in RIC volume VI and never will have the XXI.  I wish I could say that all coins with XXI are pre-reform but there are a few of the larger AE1 folles that used this formula post-reform so we will have to settle for there are no AE3 size coins with XXI that are post reform.   This example is quite typical of its RIC number but unusual compared to most coins with XXI in the way those letters are splayed out across the exergue.  Your example lost the I to the edge of the flan.  My example is below.  Below it is the corresponding Diocletian.

For what it is worth, I find interest in the fact that Maximianus and Diocletian used some more interesting reverses with Hercules and Jupiter on  pre reform antoniniani while the post reform types were more likely to be generic Concordia and Genio.  Some of the later pre-reform coins also used what I would call the lesser types so it seems the Imperial pair backed off from their close ties to their patron gods a bit before the reform.  I have no idea why.  Was there a Christian in a position of influence at the mint? We do see the reappearance of Mars and Jupiter a few years later but it seems old that the old gods took a hit about the time they founded the tetrarchy

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: maximanius follis?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2014, 04:32:40 pm »
I very much doubt whether the change was down to Christian influence, though Christianity was legal until the start of the Great Persecution. There was a general move towards a sort of monotheism - technically monolatry or henotheism - where other gods were recognised, but people tended to pick one and stick with them. So Constantine I was a sun-worshipper, for instance, and probably combined this with Christianity later - he wasn't the only one to do this - but there's nothing to suggest that he denied the other gods.
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Offline dougsmit

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Re: maximanius follis?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2014, 05:51:59 pm »
The time in question here is well before Constantine I was in the mix but when his father was first made Caesar.  The first coins of Diocletian and Maximianus tended to honor gods.  When the tetrarchy was first formed and we start getting coins of Constantius and Galerius, we see a change to personifications (Concordia, Genius).  Why?  When the persecution period began we see a few Olympian coins but, I believe, oddly few.  There are also a few Olympian post reform coins but, again, not what would seem appropriate for a regime conducting such a severe persecution as history records.  History is written by the victors and the Christians won.   I'm wondering if Diocletian was aware that he was making the effort with which he is now credited.

I remain most interested in the Anonymous Pagan coins.  One of the most interesting questions is how they were related to the persecutions and why their types were not more extremely pagan if that was their intent. 

52CoinPickup

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Re: maximanius follis?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2014, 10:30:52 pm »
I am interested in the anonymous pagan coins as well.

I would love to see a collection of those, I wonder what their purpose was?

Offline dougsmit

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Re: maximanius follis?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2014, 10:57:13 pm »
I would love to see a collection of those,

Watch for these two variations in the common Apollo type:

Shop B with misspelling  SANSTO for SANCTO - These are not common.

Shop E with mintmark reversed AMS for SMA (many M's on these look like N's on lower grade coins)  - These are common.

I am not aware of irregularities on the other common on (Zeus).  Both common Antioch types use the additive  :Greek_Delta: :Greek_epsilon: to avoid the unlucky numeral 9 ( :Greek_Theta:).  These are extremely common since there are none with the  :Greek_Theta:.  A collection needs at least one of these since the use of  :Greek_Delta: :Greek_epsilon: was most important in proving the coins were not issued under Julian as was once thought.  By the time of Julian,  :Greek_Theta: was no longer considered unlucky so it was used in place of the additive nine which ended in the time of Constantine.

Other than these two common types, all Pagans are a bit rare.  I only have one and it is not nice.


 

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