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Author Topic: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.  (Read 6709 times)

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Offline Paddy

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Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« on: June 20, 2014, 07:08:11 pm »
As far as I understand it, Trajan lowered the weight of this silver coins at some point. Does anybody know where I can find a list of the weights of the coins of Trajan? It should be mentioned in Woytek, but I have a hard time finding it.

The portrait types in woytek, is there anything specific one should look for or is it simply a question of comparing with the pictures in Woytek?

Thanks in advance,

Patrik

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 08:21:04 pm »
For the weights and fineness, Woytek pp. 19-27.

According to Woytek p. 21, the weight standard of Trajan's denarii was always 1/96 pound, c. 3.41g, but in 100 AD Trajan reduced their silver content from c. 87% to c. 80%.

For the bust types Woytek's pictures should suffice, though reading his descriptions of the types, pp. 73-90, will also be extremely valuable!
Curtis Clay

Offline Paddy

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 08:27:22 pm »
For the weights and fineness, Woytek pp. 19-27.

According to Woytek p. 21, the weightthoughtrd of Trajan's denarii was always 1/96 pound, c. 3.41g, but in 100 AD Trajan reduced their silver content from c. 87% to c. 80%.

For the bust types Woytek's pictures should suffice, though reading his descriptions of the types, pp. 73-90, will also be extremely valuable!

I appreciate your reply very much. Thank you.

I do have a follow up question: I have several denarii with a weight of about 2.8 g. If the weight stayed the same, I am not sure what to make of the lesser weight, when it apparently has nothing to do with the reduction of the silver content.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2014, 10:49:27 pm »
The standard weight is the average. Weights of individual coins can vary quite widely.

For comparison, you can find many individual weights in BMC and above all in Woytek's catalogue!
Curtis Clay

Offline Paddy

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2014, 01:27:45 am »
Thank you for your replies so far in this thread, Curtis Clay. There's also a table included in those pages covering the metals of the coins. Is it correct to draw the conclusion that all of Trajan's Sestertii was made of Orichalcum?

Thanks in advance,

Patrik

Offline Paddy

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2014, 09:50:19 am »
*Bump* .. Anybody know more about the metals of the AE coins of Trajan?

Offline Pekka K

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2014, 10:44:41 am »

Woytek p. 20: Table 2. Roman denominations of Trajan.


Offline Paddy

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2014, 11:10:50 am »
Yes, this the list I am talking about. Not sure exactly how to phrase my question, I guess I want to know if this list is one hundred percent accurate and covering all of Trajan's coins during the entire length of his reign?


Offline Pekka K

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2014, 11:41:04 am »

Woytek mentions some exceptions (abschlag):eg.
as on flan for dupondius.

Pekka K

Offline Paddy

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2014, 12:01:38 pm »

Woytek mentions some exceptions (abschlag):eg.
as on flan for dupondius.

Pekka K


Yes, I have actually started to read the pages mentioned above 19-27 and there is mention of this mix up in production. I shall return with more questions when I've read the material. I have to admit I find it a bit difficult (rather: very difficult) to read an academic text in german, but alas it has to be done.

I wonder if there is going to be any mention of what the metals were for the Sestertius. Most are orichalcum, but there are a number of cupper Trajan sestertii around, I suppose.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2014, 03:16:48 pm »
Most are orichalcum, but there are a number of cupper Trajan sestertii around, I suppose.

I have never heard of a copper sestertius, and am pretty sure Woytek doesn't publish any such of Trajan in his book.

Dupondius and As flans were the same size and weight, so mixups were easily possible. But no one would "accidentally" produce a sestertius flan in copper!
Curtis Clay

Offline Paddy

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2014, 12:41:29 am »
Thank you so much for replying. I suspect more questions will pop up as I go through the text

Offline SC

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    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2014, 02:22:24 am »
I think that you have to look at a few issues.  Intention versus result and official versus imitation.

All Trajan's official sestertii were meant to be made of orichacum.  The exact composition varied a bit from coin to coin due to mixing and perhaps slight differences in the metals used. However, there is no indication of any change to the official formula during his reign so it is probably safe to say any variations were unintended.

Now there was a clear change to the metal with Hadrian's sestertii which see the Cu jump up 5-6 percent and the zinc drop 2-3 percent. What I don't know is exactly when this changed. I assume early in Hadrian's reign and not in Trajan's.

The only copper sestertii of Trajan that I have seen or heard of are imitations. Underweight, cast coins from Pannonia. While this was not common for Trajan's coins the Numismata Carnuntina lists several.  There is no way these coins could ever be mistaken for genuine Trajan issue sestertii.

Shawn


SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Paddy

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2014, 02:37:14 pm »
OK. I've attached three sestertii that potentially could be copper and not orichalcum. Anybody care to comment?

Offline SC

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    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2014, 01:55:38 am »
They all look standard to me.

Not only does corrosion and cleaning greatly alter the state of the coin but the alloy mix can vary hugely from coin to coin.

Cope's examination showed that the amount of alloy in a single pour of molten metal can vary by a large amount from one end of the pour to another.

This can explain why the look varies.

But pure copper coins would have a much more red hue than yours.

Shawn
SC
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Offline Paddy

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2014, 04:49:57 pm »
From what sources do we get the weight standard for coins? Is ii from hoard finds?

Edit: and is there a difference between "standard weight" and "average weight"?

Offline SC

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2014, 03:59:06 am »
You have hit on an important problem.  There is no standardized way that weights are reported.

There are thus many different weights "standards". 

There is a theoretical weight standard at which the coin was struck - say 1/72 of a Libra or Roman pound, in other words 72 coins should be struck from a Roman pound of metal.  This is problematic given that no one is sure exactly what a Roman pound weighed (though the variance is not too much as estimates range from circa 322 - 327 grams, thus up to 5 gram difference, or about 1.5%).

There is also a potentially different value for the weight that the coins on an issue were actually struck at.  Did the 1/72 L take into account material losses (2-5%)?  Were they deliberately struck underweight at a mint?  With at least late Roman coins the weights almost always slide down before a new lower official standard is introduced. 

Both of these weight "standards" usually have to be guessed at - extrapolated from the existing coins.  Though sometimes the coins are marked with the theoretical weight, i.e. LXXII for 1/72 L. 

Then there are the weight "standards" derived from measuring existing coins.  This can be done by measuring only the coins in one hoard, or in one collection, or all the examples checked by the author, etc.  More scholarly works will often describe the method used - so some volumes of RIC will say average of xx based on yy number of coins from the zz hoard.   Some authors are now doing meta studies - looking at the results of several hoards or studies and comparing.

The challenge of course is that measuring existing coins depends on loss due to wear (pre-burial), corrosion (during burial), and cleaning (post-burial).  And it is not always loss - some coins that have not been cleaned, or that have certain types of corrosion or adhesions can gain in weight.

So you can sometimes see significant changes to averages between large depending on the state they are in.  Was one a hoard buried when new and the other a hoard of worn coins?

Oh, and of course the issue of contemporary copies is important.  They are usually under weight.  But are they all eliminated or not from the study?  In some cases they are difficult to identify.

With some coinage there is a question of different issues being mixed together.  The FEL TEMP REPARATIO was struck at at least four official weight standards, and possibly several others - whether official, or semi-official.  Yet many weight studies do not break them down by separate issue.  If you try to calculate average coin weights from a jar full of pennies, dimes and nickles you are doomed to failure.

Finally there is the question of the math.  Average, median and/or mean?  What is the approach to outliers?  Some keep in all, some remove the worst outliers.  there are various methods in statistics for handling this.

And this is all about averages.  If you are dealing with bronze coinage you also face the fact that they were only originally meant to average out over a large number of coins - a batch.  Thus the weight of individual coins was far less important.

So you see the problem with "average" weights......

Shawn



SC
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Offline rasiel

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2014, 05:04:43 pm »
I don't have Woytek's book yet so should not comment with absolutes but if he is claiming that the silver was debased from 87% down to 80% I'd love to see how he arrived at those figures. It is inconsistent with my own findings as well as others where analyses by XRF show purity at about 95% for the whole of the 3rd century denarii until the reign of Commodus. This happens also to make historical sense. Why would Trajan with an enormous amount of loot captured from Dacia make the desperate act of debasing the coinage by such a drastic amount? When Nero debased the coinage, by a smaller amount, it had lasting detrimental effects to the economy and it was not a lesson soon forgotten. For one thing, the amount of silver gained by the new cheaper alloy would be at least partially offset by the added costs of having to replace all the coins that would be hoarded via the Gresham's Law effect. How does one satisfactorily explain no major hoarding and melting taking place in the aftermath of this case? I am aware of Trajan's culling of worn coinage but this was an effort to boost the economy and came at a net cost to the imperial treasury so the two events, if Woytek is basing this on sound data, cannot be related.

Ras

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2014, 05:18:44 pm »
Woytek analyzed 71 denarii of Trajan, and published his results in English in Num. Chronicle 167, 2007, pp. 147-163.
Curtis Clay

Offline rasiel

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2014, 05:28:13 pm »
For those of us without the benefit of either of those sources could you please summarize what type of analysis was performed?

Ras

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2014, 06:01:59 pm »
"The coins were dissected across the portrait in order to enable measurements right to the core. One part of each coin was then mounted in synthetic resin and ground and polished with Si-C paper up to 4000 mesh. These samples were investigated  by micro X-ray florescent analysis, using a machine that allows measurements of small areas since the primary X-ray beam can be focused. Each sample was analyzed at six different positions in the middle of the sectional area and the results of the six measurements were averaged." One of the coins was also subjected to chemical analysis using PIXE, and the result confirmed the accuracy of the m-XRF measurements of the two main components, silver and copper.
Curtis Clay

Offline rasiel

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2014, 06:17:39 pm »
Here's some actual percentages on this period's denarii from an XRF scanner:

Nerva Ag 93.46   Cu 5.61   Au 0.47   Pb 0.398   Fe 0.06
Trajan Ag 96.05   Cu 3.4   Au 0.072   Fe 0.482
Trajan Ag 96.76   Cu 2.59   Au 0.59   Fe 0.05
Hadrian Ag 95.76 Cu 3.58  Au .059 Pb 0.6
Sabina Ag 95.77 Cu 3.69   Au 0.057   Pb 0.256   Fe 0.22

The way I see it there's only three possibilities:

1- I made an error somewhere (methodology, data gather and/or interpretation, equipment is crap, etc.)
2- Woytek made an error
3- Woytek and I are using completely different methods so we're comparing apples to oranges (and one of them is no good)
4- Those 87% and 80% values were a publishing error

Everything I'm reporting from my experiment is fallible of course but I've published the whole of it and it's easily accessible so the information can be independently corroborated.

https://www.academia.edu/9159193/A_metals_analysis_of_silver_Roman_imperial_coins_using_X-ray_fluorescence_spectroscopy

Ras



Offline curtislclay

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2014, 06:53:19 pm »
Ras,

You are aware, I suppose, of the problem of surface enrichment?

Woytek p. 148: Butcher and Pointing have shown that the Romans deliberately enriched the surface of their debased silver coins by soaking them in some organic acid which leached out the copper.

David Walker, unaware of this problem, did not file away enough of the edge of the coins he tested to penetrate the silver-enriched layer and reach the core of the coin. Thus Butcher and Pointing drilled out metal from the core to test, and Woytek destroyed the test coins completely by cutting them in half. Walker's figures for silver content were accordingly too high, often by more than 10%.
Curtis Clay

Offline rasiel

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2014, 07:25:50 pm »
If you skim over the paper I linked you would see that I spent the bulk of the study prepping to account for just this issue. The surface enrichment phenomenon affects an area estimated to be no more than 5 to 10 microns. Considering that a hair is about 100 microns in thickness we're talking about a whisper thin portion. Any coin in less than mint state condition would therefore have its surface be representative of the "core". I tested both anyway and found the difference to be smaller, around 3%, but with a wider variance in measuring different areas of the same coin at about 5%.

This means, unless there's something really wrong with this method, that the surface enrichment issue is essentially irrelevant. And, if you think about it, if by core what is meant is only the small portion that is directly at the center, and this is found to contain significantly less silver than the rest of the coin, then you're still making a serious mistake in the analysis. Namely, you would be doing the opposite of the mint-state surface-only test by measuring only a small area that it is unrepresentative of the whole and deriving your conclusions from those measurements. It would be like studying either end of a bell curve and ignoring the middle data. I don't know that this is the case (that a center section is of a significantly different composition) but if it is you would be better off relying on a test that measures the bulkiest part since the differences in the extremes are in too small to significantly skew the averages. And in the end what we really want to know is how much silver was going into the coins.

Ras

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Woytek and weight of Trajan Coins.
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2014, 07:42:18 pm »
Yes, I have now skimmed the paper.

Removing copper from the surface layer should have no effect on the metal in the core. That metal should reflect what the mint originally put in.

It would certainly be an error to average the silver percentage of the core with that of the surface. The percentage at the surface, after all, has been artificially raised by removing copper!

It would appear that the layer of enriched silver must be thicker than your sources assert. How else can we explain that Walker's results, obtained from a lightly filed area on the edge of the coin, were so much higher than the results obtained from core samples by Butcher, Pointing, and Woytek, which Woytek also confirmed by chemical analysis of one coin?
Curtis Clay

 

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