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Author Topic: whisky drinking monkeys  (Read 1137 times)

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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whisky drinking monkeys
« on: April 07, 2014, 06:49:18 pm »
Last week carthago referred to the Julius Caesar Crawford 480 portrait coins as being struck by whisky drinking monkeys. Whilst I agree, I think the real substance-abuse primates must have been those who struck the Antony and Octavain Crawford 528 (not the Crawford 517) dual-portrait issue. Three very typical examples below, the third being the RBW coin and as RBW had excellent Imperatorial coins this is really as good as they come. It seems to be this variety without the star under the head, i.e. Cr.528/3 that is most badly struck; those with the star look pretty normal. The no-star variety isn't illustrated in Sear Imperators, perhaps due to the difficulty securing a nice example. The RRC plate example of 528/3, is, like the three coins below, flat struck. Does there even exist a non-flat-struck example? I think the whisky-drinking monkeys also engraved the lettering on the dies.

Challenge: does anyone know of a Roman denarius series that is typically worse struck??? I cannot think of any. This is a really horribly struck issue.

Offline manpace

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Re: whisky drinking monkeys
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2014, 03:17:23 pm »
Those are precious!  Antony Legionaries seem comparable - they show every sign of being struck in a terrible hurry?

The ones that stick in my mind the most though, are the Caesar Elephant coins.  Not because bad strikes are so common, but that it's a wound to my heart anytime I see one that got out of the mint with an elephant missing body parts.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: whisky drinking monkeys
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2014, 04:15:27 pm »
Those are precious!  Antony Legionaries seem comparable - they show every sign of being struck in a terrible hurry?

The ones that stick in my mind the most though, are the Caesar Elephant coins.  Not because bad strikes are so common, but that it's a wound to my heart anytime I see one that got out of the mint with an elephant missing body parts.

I still think these 528 types are an absolute low. What makes them worse than for example legionaries, is that the flat strike areas are consistently right in the centre, and not due to off-strikes. The heads of this variety are almost never struck up properly. Two other issues with similar characteristics are RRC 457 Allienus, and RRC 480/6 the Caesar seated with seated Venus by Buca - I show both of my, characteristically flat, examples below. When you know these characteristically flat struck types, one might as well collect the best flat strike one can or else you'll be waiting for ever. I just bought the first Antony flat strike above, to upgrade the second Antony flat strike above. As good as I can get. I'll correct my initial post by noting that the third Antony above is a different variety, missing the PONT title. That with PONT are certainly the worst.

Caesar elephant - the difficulty with the type is flatness at the edges, lopping off either trunk or tail. Quite frustrating.

Offline carthago

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Re: whisky drinking monkeys
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 10:40:29 am »
Andrew - I always get the Antony and Octavian 528 and 517 confused when skimming through sales, but I've never bought a 528 because you are right, they're really poorly made.  The variation in the portraits is tremendous and yes, the lettering, is almost comical.  Your examples are as good as they seem to get! 

The Caesar lifetime portrait issues, in general, are just downright frustrating.  They are so populous, so expensive, and so difficult to find really well made on both sides prompted my primate comments (actually, I think they were probably wine swilling Gaulish captives). 

This is an interesting topic, though.  I've been madly expanding my library - (still hoping to find a Hamburger 1925 in my mail someday  ;))  Reviewing through the wonderful old sales in the early to mid 20th century, the quality of the some issues that seem more readily available then appears different from today.  Granted, only the highlights of the sale were usually illustrated, but those are often the coins I'm chasing today and in much poorer state than seemed available back then.   Nice Caesar portrait denarii, for instance, seem to be plentiful.  Maybe it's because I've got a century worth of auctions that I'm looking at...I don't know.  I need to see if I can locate some nice examples of Crawford 517 in the old catalogues.

Do you think that very high quality scarcer issues were, in general, easier to come by at auction a century ago or is it my imagination?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: whisky drinking monkeys
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2014, 12:09:37 pm »
Quote from: carthago on April 09, 2014, 10:40:29 am
Andrew - I always get the Antony and Octavian 528 and 517 confused when skimming through sales, but I've never bought a 528 because you are right, they're really poorly made.  The variation in the portraits is tremendous and yes, the lettering, is almost comical.  Your examples are as good as they seem to get!  

The Caesar lifetime portrait issues, in general, are just downright frustrating.  They are so populous, so expensive, and so difficult to find really well made on both sides prompted my primate comments (actually, I think they were probably wine swilling Gaulish captives).  

This is an interesting topic, though.  I've been madly expanding my library - (still hoping to find a Hamburger 1925 in my mail someday  ;))  Reviewing through the wonderful old sales in the early to mid 20th century, the quality of the some issues that seem more readily available then appears different from today.  Granted, only the highlights of the sale were usually illustrated, but those are often the coins I'm chasing today and in much poorer state than seemed available back then.   Nice Caesar portrait denarii, for instance, seem to be plentiful.  Maybe it's because I've got a century worth of auctions that I'm looking at...I don't know.  I need to see if I can locate some nice examples of Crawford 517 in the old catalogues.

Do you think that very high quality scarcer issues were, in general, easier to come by at auction a century ago or is it my imagination?
I suspect that a Hamburger 1925 will indeed fall through your letterbox at some point.  ;)

Yesterday I stumbled on another great old proveance coin , my Antony Pietas denarius turns out to be from the Vidal Quadras y Ramon collection sold by Etienne Bourgey in November 1913. I don't think any deliberate process is necessary, sometimes I come across a coin of mine in a book and I just add a post it  tab to the page edge with my collection number. I found another yesterday too, my Antony/Sol 496 denarius is a plate coin in Sear Imperators. And a Sulla 359 that I bought unprovenanced at the Coinex bourse turned out to be the RBW coin. Someone made a loss between NAC63 and Coinex. I discovered that only when browsing my new RBW book, which is really perverse as I sat beside Wilfred Danner as he laid out every page and of course reviewed NAC63 a dozen times for errors but missed my own coin. Comparing many-on-many databases is not an easy task. I think the only feasible way of doing it is to go through each catalogue/reference in turn, and then consider each coin in turn and see whether it matches. It sounds like a job for late evenings over cocoa or whisky.

Speaking of whisky, Crawford 528, 528/2 with or without star is badly made as compared with the beautiful inevitably-well-struck examples of Crawford 517, but 528/3 is in another lower league (the Vauxhall Conference perhaps, supporters will understand). I've seen one or two adequate examples with just some flatness but never a nice one. I haven't checked Haeberlin or other landmark sales. But it wouldn't surprise me if they are all terrible rather like the Cnaeus Pompey 477 issues. That's why I decided to buy the one at top, it is pretty close to mint state but perhaps GVF/aVF in normal grading but I suspect its as good as I'll ever get sub $1k for 528/3. Today, given my heightened awareness of the problems with 528, I bought the Rauch 528/2 with star, a quite well made albeit ornery VF coin. In retrospect I really wish I'd bagged the RBW example of 528/2. RBW never had a 528/3, which I suspect is very rare. The Crawford plate example of 528/3, flat on Octavian head, might be the best. That Crawford lists multiple spelling varieties on 528/3 is a sure sign that the monkeys were at work, the bronzes of C.Vibius Pansa perhaps being comparable in their shocking manufacture and absurd spelling varieties. Checking the Crawford plate coin which is stylistically like 528/2 and with only the typical moderate flatness of 528/2 I suspect there were two distinct issues, and the top two coins in this thread were issued by an incompetent field mint somewhere. I know of no nice examples of that style. It would make an interesting study paper. I'll add it to my reserve list when next asked for something!

Offline carthago

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Re: whisky drinking monkeys
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2014, 07:42:13 pm »
Yesterday I stumbled on another great old proveance coin , my Antony Pietas denarius turns out to be from the Vidal Quadras y Ramon collection sold by Etienne Bourgey in November 1913.

All right, now you're just rubbing it in that I didn't buy that coin at NYINC and you did!  I have that catalogue and see that it is indeed to coin!  Great find, Andrew!

I found a good one just the other day myself in Platt Hall that was missed in the RBW sale.  Lot 379 (or do we use the new NAC book number, 1604?).  Scipio/Crassus Genius Terrae Africae which you actually wrote a note about in the book.  It's one of my favorite coins and I'm surprised that RBW didn't have it noted as he's a detail nut.



Also, found that my Procilius is from Haeberlin while I was digging through that catalogue one night!



Building a library for provenance research has really added a fantastic dimension to the collecting experience.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: whisky drinking monkeys
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2014, 01:16:35 am »
 :police:
Quote from: carthago on April 09, 2014, 07:42:13 pm
Yesterday I stumbled on another great old proveance coin , my Antony Pietas denarius turns out to be from the Vidal Quadras y Ramon collection sold by Etienne Bourgey in November 1913.

All right, now you're just rubbing it in that I didn't buy that coin at NYINC and you did!  I have that catalogue and see that it is indeed to coin!  Great find, Andrew!

I found a good one just the other day myself in Platt Hall that was missed in the RBW sale.  Lot 379 (or do we use the new NAC book number, 1604?).  Scipio/Crassus Genius Terrae Africae which you actually wrote a note about in the book.  It's one of my favorite coins and I'm surprised that RBW didn't have it noted as he's a detail nut.

Also, found that my Procilius is from Haeberlin while I was digging through that catalogue one night!

Building a library for provenance research has really added a fantastic dimension to the collecting experience.

These are two amazing coins, and that's meant as a compliment from someone who has seen some really nice coins over the years to someone who has a collection containing many. They are top end, even in the most common types such as the Procilius, Haeberlin selected with care. I like to think that in future, some of our own collections will be known for such careful selection. It doesn't have to be always about condition, replacing a VF with  VF of nicer style and strike makes a huge difference that is difficult to quantify. Recently I've been trying to find nice VF coins well centred on good flans and a good strike. They can get overlooked in auctions amid all those offstruck shiny new hoard coins. I've to my certain knowledge one Platt Hall coin, also ex Hersh and RBW, but I don't yet have the Platt Hall catalogue.

Back on 528/3 I see that my new coin is one of those Shakespeare-writing-coin-striking-monkey error legends, III VIR reads III VR. The coin is growing on me, from what an ugly flat thing, to what an interesting and typically struck rare variety of a rare coin. Sometimes that happens with acquisitions. Sometimes the opposite happens, I buy a coin and quickly realise I want to send it for adoption. Once that happens I focus all out on finding a replacement and the coin is typically gone in months.

Offline carthago

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Re: whisky drinking monkeys
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2014, 09:37:19 am »
Back on 528/3 I see that my new coin is one of those Shakespeare-writing-coin-striking-monkey error legends, III VIR reads III VR. The coin is growing on me, from what an ugly flat thing, to what an interesting and typically struck rare variety of a rare coin. Sometimes that happens with acquisitions. Sometimes the opposite happens, I buy a coin and quickly realize I want to send it for adoption. Once that happens I focus all out on finding a replacement and the coin is typically gone in months.

Here a page from Haeberlin with his 528's on it.  Your newly provenanced Pietas is as well and I'd dare say yours may be better on that huge flan.  Hard to tell from 100 year old plaster cast pictures.  I'm going to dig around in some of my catalogues looking for 528 and see what I can find and post some pictures here (maybe I'll have time this weekend).  I took a quick look in Platt Hall and I think there was one but it wasn't illustrated.  I need to read the description better as that is what sets it apart from 517 so I'm not sure.

Thank you for the kind compliments, btw.  As far as coins growing on you, positive and negative, I totally know what you mean.  Having collected ancients for only about 8 years now, my tastes have changed dramatically with experience and I echo your comments on what your looking for. 

As for the offending coins, I think this has been an age old problem.  I'm not a religious man, but I think this was addressed in the bible as a matter of spiritual alignment: 

"And if thine denarius offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one denarius, rather than having two denarii to be cast into hell fire."    :angel:

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: whisky drinking monkeys
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2014, 01:08:06 pm »
Quote from: carthago on April 10, 2014, 09:37:19 am
Here a page from Haeberlin with his 528's on it.  .....

I suspect Haeberlin 3017 is the offending 528/3 type we've been discussing. Even Haeberlin's coin was pretty ugly ... Sydenham rates the Barbatia 517's as (3) and the 528's as (5) in rarity, but given that nice 528/3's are almost unknown that adds a whole extra dimension of rarity to that type.

Quote from: carthago on April 10, 2014, 09:37:19 am
As for the offending coins, I think this has been an age old problem.  I'm not a religious man, but I think this was addressed in the bible as a matter of spiritual alignment:  

"And if thine denarius offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one denarius, rather than having two denarii to be cast into hell fire."    :angel:

+++ +++

Gosh! That is a superb invocation against rubbish coins bought whilst Coreteching at 3am or whilst drunk (or both)

 

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