Roman coin stamp, any ideas?

[gfranz]

This coin stamp came in a bunch of Roman coins I helped my grandfather identify many years ago.  My grandfather was a knowledgeable collector, and traded for a bag of ancient Roman and Greek coins that came out of the ground during World War 2 when they were digging a military airport.  One soldier collected them, and eventually traded to my grandfather.  Unless I am mistaken, this looks like a stamp to make the obverse of this Roman coin.  Hope you can see in the picture the two persons facing each other.  Left person seems to be bearded man, and right person maybe a woman, but not sure.  This stamp was used until it became pretty worn.  I've not seen any mention of coin stamps in the few books I have on ancient Greek and Roman coins.  Have many of these been found?  Thanks for your expertise!

[gfranz]

I forgot to mention that the bag of coins my grandfather traded for came out of the ground in Greece.  Thanks.  I don't have all of those coins, my brothers have some, and my grandfather probably traded or gave others away.  I am a history professor, so handling coins of history is a big thrill for me.  I really love ancient Roman coins, though I have a lot to learn about them.

[gfranz]

Yikes, where is my memory?  I also meant to write that this is about 29 mm in size.  Thanks.

[Molinari]

I don't know what that is, but it does not look like a coin die (what you call a stamp).  Dies were engraved intaglio (etched in) so that the image on the coin would appear in relief (coming out from the coin not receding into it).

[gfranz]

Yes, that makes sense.  The image is coming out, not receding in it.  I never thought of that.  Could this be the mold that was hit on top of the die, to create the die?  This would have pressed the image into something.  It was obviously made to impress this coin image into something.  With a magnifying glass, I can see lettering around the edges, though I can't make out exactly what letters.  So I am pretty sure we are dealing with a coin image.  What it was made to press into, I'm not sure.  Thanks for your good thoughts!

[Molinari]

I was thinking a real coin that was fused to metal to make a top to a container of some sort.  Is there anything that can be identified on the back of the "coin"?

[djmacdo]

It reminds me a lead or pewter little circular boxes--cannot remember the technical term--capsules?--from the seventeenth and early eighteenth century that contained a sort of patent medicine that was very popular through Europe.  I believe a lot of them came from Venice, but also from other places.  They often had relief images on the lids.  I read about these some years ago, and my memory is imperfect.  The metal looks to be too soft for anything to do with a die.

[gfranz]

Thanks for these last two replies.  Yes, you two may be on to something here.  There's no trace of an image on the reverse.  So yes, it may have been a decorative top of some luxury item, like a wine jar or  patent medicine, as you mentioned.  Maybe the coin is genuine, and they glued it within this metal circular piece to serve as some kind of ornamental cap.  It is the size of a bottle opening, so I think medicine or wine would be a plausible guess.  This is very interesting, but I'm a tad disappointed it wasn't a die.  But I still like the piece a lot.

Thanks again!

[Carausius]

Can you tell us the weight (preferably in grams)?  To me, this looks like a badly bent/damaged Byzantine AE Trachy (commonly known as "cup coins").  However, I'm not a Byzantine collector, so I'm not certain.  You mentioned that it was found in Greece, which fits my hypothesis.   

[gfranz]

Thanks for that last post.  I don't have a way of weighing this, but it is pretty heavy, much heavier than just a coin. 

I did find through a Google search a very old Ottoman lead bottle cap, and the picture looks almost exactly like what I have, only an Islamic seal instead of a coin.  The person describes this as a top to a small Islamic amphora.  Here is the link to that item: http://www.ancientresource.com/lots/islamic_arabic/ottomanturkish_artifacts.html (then click on seal).

I looked up the definition of amphora:

am·pho·ras. Greek and Roman Antiquity .
a large two-handled storage jar having an oval body, usually tapering to a point at the base, with a pair of handles extending from immediately below the lip to the shoulder: used chiefly for oil, wine, etc., and, set on a foot, as a commemorative vase awarded the victors in contests such as the Panathenaic games -- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amphora

I am attaching a picture, which really does look like what I have, as far as the way the bottom looks (hammered around something round).  It looks like what I have was a decorative lead top to seal some kind of jar.  When I look at the bottom, I see that it forms an exact circle, which is what would have happened if it was lightly hammered around a jar top.  Now I am wondering how far back in history did they use these lead tops.  In other words, how old is this item?  If the Ottomans were using this from 1400-1700, chances are this is also the range here, and an old coin, then out of circulation (and before the beloved hobby of numismatics!), could not only strengthen it, but decorate it and give it a little class.

Thanks again to all for your input!

[gfranz]

And I like my seal better than the Islamic seal, because the encasing looks stronger, and the top would be much more solid with a coin rather than just a stamped seal.  If there was wine in the jar, fermenting pressure would build.  Great idea to put a coin on the top, in the pre-cork days.

[Carausius]

You may be onto something. I suggest you post the pictures on the Seals and Tesserae board of the FForum. If it is a seal, you might get a positive ID there.

[gfranz]

Thanks for that good idea.  This is a very robust website.

[Molinari]

I don't think it is a trachy, but a real ancient roman coin with this theme, used in some sort of folk art.  You might not see anything on the reverse but it is quite dirty so I wouldn't be surprised if there is a worn reverse there.

[gfranz]

This coin is very close, if not exact to the obverse of the picture here.  I can just place a few letters on the very bottom in the same place, and two persons seem very close to what is pictured.

I'm embarrassed to say that I've never really examined the reverse of this too much, except with the naked eye.  When I look with a magnifying glass, I can see that there are features of the reverse side of the coin.  I need to soak this some and work on it.  I've never heard this recommended, but I think it is safe, and that is I use an electric toothbrush (not the same one I personally use) to help clean coins.  Just the soft wet nylon bristles after the coin soaks seems to help.  The circle of the brush is about the same size of many of the coins I've been cleaning. 

Thanks for pointing me to that reverse.  There does seem to be a person standing in the middle, but will need to soak and clean. 

[areich]

Your seal shows two busts but those are not the busts of Macrinus and Diadumenian. Your left bust has a beard.

[Carausius]

I don't think it is a trachy, but a real ancient roman coin with this theme, used in some sort of folk art.

Yep. My eyes deceived me. When I first looked at the middle picture, I saw it as two front facing busts. Looking again, they are clearly in profile. Nevermind!

[Molinari]

I see the beard too, so maybe Septimius Severus and someone else?  Roman experts will be able to pick out the type, I'm sure!

You should be able to run the item under distilled water to remove some of the dirt on the reverse.  Just make sure to dry it thoroughly.

[gfranz]

Yes, I have it soaking in distilled water now, and have taken the old electric toothbrush to it some.  I have hopes the reverse will clear up.  I'll take a new picture of the reverse if it clears up some.  Thanks.

[Christopher H2]

It reminds me a lead or pewter little circular boxes--cannot remember the technical term--capsules?--from the seventeenth and early eighteenth century that contained a sort of patent medicine that was very popular through Europe.  I believe a lot of them came from Venice, but also from other places.  They often had relief images on the lids.  I read about these some years ago, and my memory is imperfect.  The metal looks to be too soft for anything to do with a die.

I was searching for this in my memory for quite some time... Theriac!

The object IS DEFINITELY a theriac bottle cap!

http://members.aon.at/ch.gugl/feldk2.htm

http://ascsa.net/research?q=%22n2833%22&v=list&redirect=

[gfranz]

Awesome!  Thanks for your work here.  Yes, this looks similar to the picture you have, and the first website (members.aon.at...), though mine does not have a circle design on the back.  As I work with a toothbrush and distilled water, I am seeing a man's head, his shoulders, parts of both arms and possible foot or feet.  I am enclosing new pictures, still wet with distilled water.

Thanks again.  Gerald