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Author Topic: End of the Canadian Penny  (Read 4986 times)

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Offline SC

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End of the Canadian Penny
« on: April 17, 2012, 06:39:50 am »
OK.  Not an ancient coinage topic but one of general interest nevertheless.

While I know that my employer has been cutting many things - jobs and budgets etc.  I only just read that the venerable Canadian penny is to be discontinued soon.

The attached link is to a Canadian Government pdf that gives more details and explains how we will live with nothing under a 5 cent piece - "a guide to rounding".  It is about 2 1/2 megs so beware.

http://www.budget.gc.ca/2012/themes/theme2-eng.pdf

Shawn
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 06:56:19 am »
OK.  Not an ancient coinage topic but one of general interest nevertheless.

While I know that my employer has been cutting many things - jobs and budgets etc.  I only just read that the venerable Canadian penny is to be discontinued soon.

The attached link is to a Canadian Government pdf that gives more details and explains how we will live with nothing under a 5 cent piece - "a guide to rounding".  It is about 2 1/2 megs so beware.

http://www.budget.gc.ca/2012/themes/theme2-eng.pdf

Shawn


"In removing its lowest denomination coin, Canada will follow on the successful experiences of many other countries, including ... the United Kingdom."

Could someone explain this. My pockets are weighed down with pennies and tuppences in the UK. I just bought a range of "goods and services" and in every case got some bronze or bronze-coated steel in return with not a hint of rounding. The british penny seems to be alive and well. How well informed are the Canadian government?

Offline SC

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 07:07:43 am »
Andrew,

Awesome!  I make no appologies for my fellow Government types.  Sadly, nor am I very surprised.

Shawn
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Offline Steve E

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 09:08:28 am »
I'm 3/4 the way thru a very interesting and enlightening new book called "The End Of Money" that addresses this topic as well as other related issues.
I learned about this book while listening to a public radio interview with the author, David Wolman, who said he should have named the book "The End Of Cash", since that's what its really about.

In the book he explores briefly, the history and characteristics of money, using many familiar terms like, seigniorage, debasement, hoarding, revaluation, counterfeiting, etc. He treats fairly, I think, various opinions and preferences about the future of cash. The advantages and disadvantages, and some interesting psychological human behaviors related to it. He explores some alternatives to cash, and introduces some cutting-edge technologies being attempted and implemented around the world.

He interviews experts from all "sides of the coin" ;) with very contrasting opinions and philosophies. I think his research is extensive and yet, his writing style is very light and entertaining. I should finish the book in the next couple days, at which time I plan on giving a more complete review. So I'll hold further comment until then.

At this point, I think many in our hobby would enjoy reading it, especially in light of the several related disscussions I've seen on this board lately!

~Steve

Offline cicerokid

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 11:44:27 am »

Andrew,

I think the Canadian government is refering to the elimination of the old halfpence coin which I think happened in the 1980's.
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Offline cliff_marsland

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 12:10:07 pm »
Since the penny is largely superfluous, why not switch to a plastic penny?   Surely that would cut down on production costs?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 12:46:55 pm »
Since the penny is largely superfluous, why not switch to a plastic penny?   Surely that would cut down on production costs?

Perhaps, but if the coin is not really required it is not really required. So eliminate it. The document explains that much of the savings are in transaction costs and distribution costs. Changing it to plastic involves the hassle of the change but almost no benefit.

I'm also not even sure a plastic penny would cost less than the current steel (bronze clad). You are back to messy moulds - aes grave so to speak - and materials aside the production costs might rise.


Andrew,

I think the Canadian government is refering to the elimination of the old halfpence coin which I think happened in the 1980's.


aha. But that's a nonsense comparison because banks and accounting never used the (post decimalisation) 1/2 pence anyway but always worked in full pence from the introduction of decimalisation onwards, and removal of the coin required no rounding. The 1/2 pence had no accounting reality, it was just a denomination to assist in shop-keepers fine tuning of prices. Once they printed out their till receipts at the end of the day they would have recorded the amount rung up in whole pence. Removing it didn't affect anything - no accounting systems, no banking systems, no shop systems (they just moved to price in whole pence - there was no rounding required after the change). Totally not comparable. But, as Shawn notes, it's a government document.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 03:14:36 pm »
The 1/2 pence had no accounting reality, it was just a denomination to assist in shop-keepers fine tuning of prices. Once they printed out their till receipts at the end of the day they would have recorded the amount rung up in whole pence. Removing it didn't affect anything - no accounting systems, no banking systems, no shop systems (they just moved to price in whole pence - there was no rounding required after the change).

I'd add as proof of the memory that the 1/2 pence had no accounting reality was the long standing joke in the 1970s and early 1980s about the person who became a millionaire by finding a way to access all the non-existent halfpennies in everyone's accounts. It was a well established fact that all bank balances were denominated in pounds and pence only. Of course the non-existent halfpennies never existed just because all withdrawals and lodgements were in full pence. It was effectively a token coin, for the 15 or so years of its life. But I also recall working in a store in the early 1980s and having a long and pointless discussion with the manager as to why all the accounts were in full pence - sales figures were in 1/2 pence but when he added them up for accounts any spare 1/2 penny disappeared.

In truth, considering the Canadian document, it might be more true to say that the UK decimal half-penny was a "rounded" concept BEFORE it was abolished - rounded in accounts but not in coin which is exactly the opposite of the 5c-1c rounding exercise, which rounds in coin but not in accounts. After it was abolished the halfpenny just didnt exist - neither as an accounting nor coin amount.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 05:01:33 pm »
"In removing its lowest denomination coin, Canada will follow on the successful experiences of many other countries, including ... the United Kingdom."

Could someone explain this. My pockets are weighed down with pennies and tuppences in the UK. I just bought a range of "goods and services" and in every case got some bronze or bronze-coated steel in return with not a hint of rounding. The british penny seems to be alive and well. How well informed are the Canadian government?

It was the halfpenny which was abolished. I agree the current 'bronze' (actually plated zinc) coins are a pain in the posterior, and don't make much sense. It's the latest stage of an onoing process. When I was little, the farthing (1/4 penny) was still legal tender, but nobody ever used the things. They went eventually, then we had decimalisation in 1971, and went from a penny which was 1/240 pound to a 'New Penny' which was 1/100 pound, or almost two and a half pence. Before long, I suspect the 5p will be the smallest coin.
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 09:48:35 pm »
It was the halfpenny which was abolished. I agree the current 'bronze' (actually plated zinc) coins are a pain in the posterior, and don't make much sense. It's the latest stage of an onoing process. When I was little, the farthing (1/4 penny) was still legal tender, but nobody ever used the things. They went eventually, then we had decimalisation in 1971, and went from a penny which was 1/240 pound to a 'New Penny' which was 1/100 pound, or almost two and a half pence. Before long, I suspect the 5p will be the smallest coin.

It's an historically permanent ongoing process
- the halfpenny in 1984
- the farthing in 1956
- the one lire coin about 1970
- the uncia about 100 BC
etc.

I rather like these end of era fractions. The last coins in such issues are always completely pointless. I understand that the farthing only lasted so long because an individual pint of milk, doorstep delivery, had a fractional farthing in its price and it allowed correct change to be given at the end of the week. I think these small denomination pointless coins are rather lovely. The below Forum page shows a nice example of one of the later 2 lire coins that copies an Ephesus bee type, with an olive branch on the reverse.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/Articles/Ancient_Coins_on_Modern_Coinage/Ancient_on_modern.htm

Of all the stats given for this tiny 0.8g coin perhaps the most telling is its mintage: 2 million. That's a single coin for every 30 people in Italy. Not a useful coin! The end of era uncia in ancient Rome was about as useful and as rare. Here are my two latest examples, that from Publius Maeania Antiaticus dating from 132 BC, and Lucius Hostilius Tubulus dating from 105 BC.



Both coins were as useless as a farthing (or a Canadian penny) when minted. What on earth were they for? Does anyone know why these very rare coins were minted?

Offline gallienus1

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 11:47:51 pm »
Very interesting thread, especially Andrew’s historical overview of the process lower denomination obsolescence.

Inflation in Australia has seen the loss of the copper coins in the early 1980’s followed by the replacement of one and two dollar notes with anodized metal coins.

Eventually it is said coins and notes will disappear as electronic transfer using plastic cards becomes ever more “convenient”. What the advocates of this don’t seem to know is that solar storms have the capacity to destroy all electronic storage of information. There was a storm only a few days ago that caused minor disruption. We are overdue for a big one such as the Carrington Event of 1859, which would not only wipe out computer memory but destroy transformers in national electricity grids causing world wide catastrophic damage. After which our plastic cards would be as useful as a chocolate teapot.   

See-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

http://spectregroup.wordpress.com/2010/05/12/a-carrington-event/

After all the mayhem coins and notes would be sure to make a big comeback!

Best Regards,
Steve

Offline SC

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2012, 11:07:53 am »
I would like to see the reaction of my fellow Canadians.  I for one will be in Europe for another 2 or so years.  But were I in Canada I would begin putting every penny I lay my hands on into a jar and hoarding them.

Make sense?  No.  But I bet there will be many others who do the same.

On another note I never heard the term "useful as a chocolate teapot" till yesterday, then my wife said it to me.  (Not about me I must add.)  Now I see Steve using it.  Very odd.

Shawn
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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2012, 07:54:39 am »
You're married to Steve?    ;)

Offline areich

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2012, 08:29:58 am »
There is another obvious explanation.  :laugh:
Andreas Reich

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2013, 04:00:29 am »
Canada has produced no cents since last year, and now it has officially ceased circulating them as well. A similar move has been debated in the U.S. for more than 20 years, but a choice still stays in limbo.

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2013, 05:53:33 am »

It's an historically permanent ongoing process
- the halfpenny in 1984
- the farthing in 1956
- the one lire coin about 1970
- the uncia about 100 BC
etc.

Of all the stats given for this tiny 0.8g coin perhaps the most telling is its mintage: 2 million. That's a single coin for every 30 people in Italy. Not a useful coin! The end of era uncia in ancient Rome was about as useful and as rare. Here are my two latest examples, that from Publius Maeania Antiaticus dating from 132 BC, and Lucius Hostilius Tubulus dating from 105 BC.

Hi Andrew and folks,

The Italian Lira is a good lesson in inflation. Around the year 1800, an 8 Lire coin minted in one of the Italian city-states (like Genoa, for example) was equivalent to a US silver dollar. They were both crown-sized coins, and they both contained an ounce of silver. I actually have a 1804 Genoa 8 Lire AR coin. I chose that year because of the famous 1804 US silver dollar. Around the year 2000, when Italy switched to the euro, one US dollar was worth about 2,000 Italian lire. Within a span of 200 years, the lira went from being worth 1/8 of a US dollar to being worth 1/2,000 of a US dollar.

Meeozorp

Offline Richard2

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2013, 04:01:33 pm »
I am in favor of keeping the US one-cent coin for sentimental sake, but I must admit that we could get along without it.  When I was a young child, our lowest denomination coin, the cent, was worth one percent of a silver dollar.  Today the quarter-dollar is about one percent of  silver dollar.  If we could get by with no coin lower than a cent in 1960, we should be able t get by with no coin lower than a quarter dollar today.

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2014, 10:59:48 pm »
Many businesses were worried about the change. Early 2013, the Canadian penny  has officially removed. Canada isn't the first country to have flirted with this idea, as in U.S., it has been debated for more than 20 years, but a choice still stays in limbo.

Offline JBF

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2014, 12:31:07 pm »
Canada has no cents!  ;D  actually, Canadians have a lot of sense, seem to be a fairly level-headed people.
The story about the bank and half-pence actually happened, sort of, although I don't remember where.  Some one set up a computer program that diverted all the fractions of a (US?) penny into one account, instead of rounding down (and thus giving the bank those fractions).
Something slightly different.  Saw on a PBS show (US Public Broadcasting System (TV)) Coca Cola made up trays and painted building walls, advertising Coke for 5 cents.  It stuck them at that price, especially since they didn't want to double the price all at one time.  Later, the president of Coke was a buddy of the president (Eisenhower?) and tried to get him to introduce a 7 1/2 cent coin.
Obsolete denominations are an interesting topic.

The US would love to give up the paper dollar and go to a dollar coin.  Problem is, the people aren't really interested.  It seems like as a kid, I saw a lot more dollar and 50 cent coins, I wonder if that is because shop clerks gave them in change to kids because the shop clerks knew the adults wouldn't want them.

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2014, 05:03:38 pm »
In Germany several times it was discussed to stop issuing 1 and 2 Pfennig pieces because the production costs were more than 1 resp. 2 Pfennig per piece. But it was never realized because one of the "Urängste" of the Germans is the fear of inflation in memory of the hyperinflation in 1923.

In 1932 Germany under Chancellor Brüning issued a 4 Reichspfennig coin (instead of the usual 5 Reichspfennig coin). The intention was to educate the people in economy. Brüning had hoped for a new price consciousness and for lowering of the  consumer prices. Each wage paying had to have at least 2 Reichsmark paid in these 4 Pfennig coins. One year later this coin was cancelled.

Finland, a member of the EURO zone, has neither 1 nor 2 cent coins in circulation.

Best regards

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2014, 01:35:30 am »
In Germany several times it was discussed to stop issuing 1 and 2 Pfennig pieces. But it was never realized because one of the "Urängste" of the Germans is the fear of inflation in memory of the hyperinflation in 1923.

In 1932 Germany under Chancellor Brüning issued a 4 Reichspfennig coin (instead of the usual 5 Reichspfennig coin). The intention was to educate the people in economy. Brüning had hoped for a new price consciousness and for lowering of the  consumer prices. Each wage paying had to have at least 2 Reichsmark paid in these 4 Pfennig coins. One year later this coin was cancelled.

Finland, a member of the EURO zone, has neither 1 nor 2 cent coins in circulation.

My perception is of Finland being one of the more expensive country in the eurozone (Jyrki please correct me if I'm wrong) whereas I know Germany to be quite frugal. So Bruening might have had the right idea. In Holland, which does rounding in most stores, Aldi has kept the 1 and 2 cent coin and exact change, but for a while a couple of years ago they had a sign up saying that they would not accept such coins in payment. The sign disappeared after some time and I once again saw frugal housewives using cents to pay, but I don't know whether they reversed the policy because it was illegal, or due to market forces. I recently had the absurd situation of a Dutch supermarket rounding up an amount to the next 5 cent but then giving me the last 10 cents of my change in 1 and 2 cent pieces. When I pointed out that, if they were going to give me cents in change they can't logically round up, and I'd like the 2 cents I was now owed, the attendant looked at me if I'd two heads. Recently when living in Nigeria they reintroduced the 50 kobo, 1 naira and 2 naira coins and insisted that supermarkets dispensed the last 5 naira as coins rather than a note. This put lots of small coins into the hands of wealthy supermarket shoppers who put them into a kobo-jar I guess rather than into the hands of poor street market women who might have used them. The real need was actuality for coins for larger denominations, 5, 10 and 20 naira whose notes were among the dirtiest on the planet despite continual new issues by government due to Gresham's law. The good new notes got hoarded. The coin policy was quietly dropped after a while. For one thing the naira coins (1 naira ~=1 cent) evidently cost more to make than face value. The policy left a trace in popular culture however - there's a singer called 50 kobo (not just a take-off of 50 cent, but intended to convey cheap and low-class to the point of absolute absurdity), and Africa's largest bulk-sms provider has the same company name. In the US there is the nonsense of receiving exact change in supermarkets but being unable to spend it in cafes etc due to tipping in round dollar numbers. It seems really inflationary to me as a visitor. The Italians famously supplemented small Lire coinage with candy and chewing gum. As a child in Ireland I recall postage stamps being generally accepted as small change. All in all, from the many examples I've seen, I think it is wise for governments to pay some attention to the value of small change in curbing inflation and encouraging commerce, but also to recognise that in the end you can't buck the market wishes. Rome got caught in the same dilemma, issuing 1 and two uncia coins for a century after they had any market use. They are now all extremely rare.

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Re: End of the Canadian Penny
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2014, 11:43:16 am »
Unless Norway has recently demonetized its 50 ore coin, I believe Sweden currently has the most valuable lowest denomination. This is the 1 krona coin which currently exchanges for US 15.5 cents, 11.2 Euro cents or UK 9.1 pence. It is quite absurdly large for a smallest denomination, though, and significantly bigger than a US quarter (same size as when it was introduced 140 years ago). All Swedish coins will soon be replaced by more manageable sizes, though.

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Edited: It seems that Norway has, indeed, withdrawn its 50 öre coin from general circulation, so the Norwegian 1 krone now holds the honor of being the most valuable lowest denomination (1 NOK=1,07 SEK).

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