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Author Topic: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal  (Read 8343 times)

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Offline J. B.

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Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« on: February 28, 2014, 06:51:42 am »
1) Identify goddes and animal

2) specify arguments for your choose
    don't look to wildwinds or BMC it won't help you anyway

Sorry for bad picture but I think it's sufficient for attribution.

Offline SC

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Re: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2014, 04:18:44 am »
Legend identifies it as a coin of Odessos, Thrace.

The Goddess is likely Demeter holding sceptre and ears of corn/grain.  She often appears with Persephone on coins of Odessos.  I don't know why, maybe because it was an important port for grain exports and Demeter was goddess of grain?

But what is the creature??  My guess is a cock/rooster which was a symbol for Persephone and it thus represents a different form of the Demeter and Persephone pairing.

Shawn

SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline J. B.

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Re: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2014, 10:11:20 am »
I agree goddes is Demeter. That was the easier part. But I believe it isn't rooster at her feet. They were able to depict rooster much better and I would expect some connection between Demeter and animal. Rooster is usually used as Hermes' animal.  I've looked on internet and found that Persephone's animals were: bat, talking birds, raven, crow, ram and monkey. So I wouldn't expect this long-necked bird would be used as representation of Persephone.

example of rooster from Nikopolis: http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/septimius_severus/_nikopolis_Varbanov_2728.jpg

Maybe I should mention that this quiz require ornithological knowlage.  :)

Best Regards
Jan

Offline benito

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Re: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2014, 11:31:03 am »
I would say a wading bird. Type of crane or heron.
Quite a few in Crimea.

Offline Jochen

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Re: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2014, 12:13:33 pm »
I don't think that this female figure is Demeter.  The bird looks like a peacock I have already seen on other coins. And then I miss the torch for Demeter. The staff looks more like a sceptre. Therefore I think it's rather a strange Hera.

Jochen

Offline J. B.

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Re: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 03:14:49 pm »
I think benito is right.

German wikipedia:
"In der griechischen Mythologie war der Kranich sowohl Apollon, dem Gott der Sonne und Demeter, der Erd- und Fruchtbarkeitsgöttin, als auch Hermes als Bote des Frühlings und des Lichts zugeordnet. So lasen die Auguren (Priester) in Griechenland aus den Flugformationen der Kraniche. Außerdem galten Kraniche als Symbol der Wachsamkeit und Klugheit."

In Greek mythology the crane was assigned to Apollo the god of the sun, Demeter the earth and fertility goddess and Hermes as the messenger of spring and the light. The augurs (priests) in Greece read the flight formations of the cranes. In addition, cranes were seen as a symbol of vigilance and prudence.

I've searched for Heron in mythology and I have ony found that heron was a messanger  in Odyssey. So drane seems to me more likely.

Hera and peacock would make sence but it would be probably the only type with Hera from Odessus and the only type with Hera holding grain ears. Peacock is always depicted as elegant bird not with "bedraggled feather" like bird on this coin. It seemed strange to me if they decide to depict Hera and peacock this way.

I attach photo of Crane.

Jan

Offline Jochen

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Re: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 05:24:37 am »
Here is the same type from my collection. Pick writes: Crude style! And that is right. The bird depicted on the coin doesn't look like the elegant crane. And furthermore the object in the r. hand of the female figure looks more like a branch than grain ears.
There is no evidence for Demeter:
(1) no torch
(2) no veil
(3) no grain ears

And Jan, you have written "but it would be probably the only type with Hera from Odessus"
But I have never seen a crane on a coin from Moesia or Thrace at all!

I have added another pic of a coin showing Hera with peacock, Nikopolis ad Istrum, Elagabal, HrHJ (2013) 8.26.3.3. Here the peacock has some similarities with the bird on the coin of Odessos.

Best regards

Offline J. B.

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Re: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 12:01:11 pm »
I'm still not completely conviced.
I think torch and veil aren't necessary attributes of Demeter. I'd say Demeter has no veil on at least half of types from Thrace and Moesia. Types with scepter also exists. Maybe scepter is only simplified torch. On the other hand I haven't found Hera without patera. The crucial attribute is the bird but because of its crude style I think we can't say it's for sure peacock even it's the only regularly depicted bird from possible options.

Demeter without veil and with similar strange grain ears or branch from Markianopolis
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=44678

Demeter with scepter and grain ears, without viel from Deultum:
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=111307

Demeter with veil, grain ears and scepter from Tomis:
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=29088

It seems that all coins of this type I've seen (my, Jochen's, wildwinds and British museum examples) were struck with the same dies. The lack of engraver's experience could explain crude style of bird. I think there is still possibility they tried to depict some migrant bird (crane, heron, stork) as messenger of spring what would support Demeter.

I've tried to sum up arguments:

Hera and peacock:
 + + scepter
 + crude peacock
 - - branch or grain ears instead of patera (Does any coin depicting Hera without patera from Thrace or Moesia exist?)
 - only type with Hera from Odessus

Demeter and crane:
 + strange grain ears
 + + usual goddes for Odessos
 - no torch, no veil
 - - only type with crane from area

Best Regards
Jan

Offline Akropolis

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Re: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 12:24:01 pm »
How about Zeus and eagle....though holding a branch of some type is unusual?
PeteB

Offline Constantine IV

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Re: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2014, 01:41:38 pm »
Varbanov 4575, AE27, Odessus:
Obverse: AVT K M ANT ΓOPΔIANOC AVΓ CЄ / TPANKV / ΛΛINA, laureate, draped and cuirassed bust of Gordian, facing right the diademed and draped bust of Tranquillina, facing left.
Reverse: Hera, standing left, holding branch and Sceptre, Peacock at feet.  E in field to left.
"He who gives himself airs of importance, exhibits the credentials of impotence". ~ Decimus Laberius, 46 BCE

Offline J. B.

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Re: Daily Quiz - 28th February - identify goddes and animal
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2014, 03:32:47 pm »
I would like to ask what do you think about this coin:

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/gordian_III/_odessos_Moushmov_1687.jpg

Gordian III and Tranquillina, AE26 of Odessos, Thrace. Confronted busts of Gordian and Tranquillina / ODECCEITWN, Zeus standing left, naked to waist, holding patera and sceptre; eagle at foot. E in left field. Moushmov 1687.

I think person and bird are the same as on previously discussed coin (Moushmov 1686, Varbanov 4575). The only difference is patera instead of branch.

Could someone explain why it should be Zeus? Aren't those two the same type (Hera with peacock) and Moushmov 1686 accidentaly with branch instead of patera since four exemplars I've seen were probably struck with the same dies?

Jan

 

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