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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: French eBay seller monneron - Peculiar Patina  (Read 99331 times)
Congius
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« on: April 06, 2004, 02:36:57 pm »

I've been keeping an eye of the listings of French eBay seller monneron, and have been avoiding his items since they look fake to me. Individually many/most of the coins look legit, but put together as a collection the uniform look draws attention. He's just started selling (dumping?) coins in job lots, so here's a current example, below.

ALL of this sellers coins - both current listings and previous ones - look like this (although there are two variations on the "patina" - uniform green and blotchy brown and green).

I'd be interested on hearing other opinions on this sellers' coins.

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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2004, 02:49:00 pm »

Here's another example of this sellers coins. This example has wierd legends as well as the trademark patina, but most look much more normal.

You can do an eBay search by seller on "monneron" to see the rest of this seller's current listings.
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jbaran
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2004, 08:14:43 pm »

The bust looks like the Arles style...long but fleshy instead of gaunt.  Letters fit style-wise...size is a tad off.  I think the stick figure like appearance of the soldier is a result of taking the patina off the high points...looks real to me...or a whole lot of effort to put into a fake common coin (RIC VIII 121)

Compare to plates from RIC VIII
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Jerome Holderman
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2004, 05:48:25 am »

I would not touch any of this sellers items. Patinas are certainly fake and I am not confident in the coins authenticity either. Check these photos. there are some striking similarities. Huh
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Jerome Holderman
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2004, 05:49:01 am »

And these:
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Jerome Holderman
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2004, 06:02:55 am »

Or these:
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2004, 06:04:45 am »

Lots of examples within there auctions. Either they found the site of the Arles mint or something is fishey?
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Jerome Holderman
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2004, 02:17:37 pm »

What struck me about the Campgates is that the obverse looks like almost if not exactly a Die match, Flans are similiar if not identical in shape, reverse style is the same , but with the different exergue I am guessing these were made in different years? Struck me as odd?
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2004, 02:39:56 pm »

Whilst the busts on the two campgates are similar in style, they are not a die match. Look at the beads hanging from the back of the laurels and look closely at the number of beads. They are not the same. When you look at this level of detail you find several other small differences. I have bought from him and the coins I received (Probus, Lugdunum mint) are genuine enough.
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2004, 05:44:30 pm »

As I said - most of the coins individually look fine, but when you look at the overall picture, something seems off.... Here's a few of the coins from a previous listing of his (about 60 coins were listed that time - all same patina).

If this was a hoard, then it was a hell of a hoard! - not only all pristine condition (minus the patina), but also all centered, well struck... and look at the rarities that are represented in this collection. The "VOT X" could conceivably be a (Constantine II or Crispus) mule rather than a fake, but even then it'd be very rare, and I've seen record of a "DN CONSTANTINI MAX AVG" campgate sell for $500+ at auction (why would you ruin such a coin with a fake patina, if indeed it is applied). Note the VOT XXX crescent too ....

The sellers sales & feedback score mostly comes from a single buyer (tacitus38, if memory serves), which also seems odd.
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2004, 07:56:25 pm »

I agree with Gunner, they're fakes; but darn good fakes. I'd be interested in seeing what exactly the patina is hiding... perhaps some cast pitting?

Evan
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2004, 04:16:07 pm »

I finally decided I had to weigh in on these coins.  I can guarantee with 100% assurity that the last coin, ROMAE AETERNAE, shown in the earlier sold group from this dealer is not an official issue and I am positive it is fake.  The mintmark is a poor attempt to copy the R curly que CP mintmark from Rome and the style of the coin is completely wrong.
The FEL TEMP may look a bit like normal coins, but again, the total style is all wrong.  It also is a poor fake.  The VRBS ROMA coins as mentioned earlier have strange faces on the wolf.  In short, I wouldn't pay much for any of these coins....and a couple are ones that I would want if they were real.
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« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2004, 04:00:00 am »

Shouldn't this variety of the Constantine AETERNA PIETAS type, with christogram above globe rather than cross in field, have a left facing reverse, with globe in right hand (the only way I've seen it) rather than vice versa as in this current monneron example?
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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2004, 10:47:29 am »

This is my monneron, I've weighed it (3.0gms), looked at it under a microscope and I still think it is genuine. Definitely not a cast. However, I am not an expert on campgates by a long way and am not acquainted with mint varieties at all. Assuming it to be genuine does anybody know what will remove the "jax"?   Undecided

Alex.

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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2004, 03:39:25 pm »

I don't like them.  Some look good, but some do not.  Since they all have the same patina, I think they come from the same place.  And what a hoard, so many interesting and strange types.  Modern fakes, I believe.  Let's look at the coin above.  Perhaps it is copied directly from genuine dies, but it would be an unusual coin.  Dotted eyebrows, I only recall that from Trier and uncommon.  The ends of the diadem, very strange.  The list of odd things goes on I think.  

Perhaps this is the work of the uncleaned fake coin forger, but much improved.    The patina looks similar to me.
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2004, 09:09:36 pm »

I agree that these coins are fakes (perhaps some are legit in that first group photo).   The other photos that have been presented here from RIC and other sources, even though they do look "off" with regard to the regular style, are still clearly genuine sylistically and morphologically.  The fake coins are different both in the "pictorial quality" of the obverse and reverse and in the form of the lettering.   There is some surprising variation in Constantinian bronze but not within these parameters.  Anyway, in all cases, "If in doubt, don't buy".  I must admit that after spending lots on e-Bay I have shifted more to legitimate dealers, except for cheaper late fouth and fifth century bronze.  If something just looks wrong when I get the coin I can always just send it back for a complete refund.
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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2004, 05:25:28 am »

It is not any one thing about these coins that makes me 99.9% sure they are fake.  It is the combination of many many things.  The biggest is that this is just an impossible hoard of coins.  They are just too interesting and too strange.  

These are, in fact, the only fake common late Roman bronze I know that I think are good enough to pass many dealers - but only because they are inexpensive coins that could slip by due to lack of carefull attention.  

I am not sure that last coin posted is fake.  It does have a better patina than the first group.  
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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2004, 01:47:44 pm »

OK, here's what I think...

We need to seperate the patinas that are all similar (Jax), from the coins that are fakes. I'm not convinced that the Julian II above, for instance, is a fake, just patinated with Jax. The coins that have my suspicions are the coins that come from Arles, particularily the campgates. I fully agree with Joe, this isn't a hoard find, there are simply too many rare types and screw-ups etc. Although, the style (bizarre as it is) may be attributed to the fact that a lot of these coins are perhaps from the same officina of Arles- PCONST is almost universally the mint mark for the suspect coins.

Next, assuming that the issues that we have decided are fake, are indeed not authentic, one has to wonder how they got into these sellers hands. If the patina actually is a trademark of the fakes, then there's a whole lot of sellers who have these.

Other than that, I think these coins need their authenticity judged on a per coin basis, as some seem real, and others not.

Evan
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« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2004, 05:01:02 pm »

OK, here's what I think...
Other than that, I think these coins need their authenticity judged on a per coin basis, as some seem real, and others not.
Evan

I will not buy any coins with that patina.  None.  I don't even care if it is possible some coins with this patina are genuine. 

I do not believe there a lot of sellers who have these.  You are not distinguishing well enough between this particular patina and similar patinas.  I have never had a coin with that patina.  

I believe all the coins with this patina are modern forgeries.  It would take a consensus of experts to convince me otherwise.  
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2004, 06:23:18 pm »

Disagree about "Monneron" coins. This would-be world Iranian-Canadian-Ukrainian-Sicilian-Sevillan-whatever conspiracy Shocked to flood the market under undetectable patina-perfect hich-tech coins is pure fantasy.
I maintain these ex bear hoard patina; not to mention the economic non-sense of engraving so different dies for selling rather cheap coins. I'm still expecting the dozens of die-match coins to make this business profitable  Huh
More interesting to create some perfect Vitellius Sestertii; though Caracalla Sestertii are ok, too   Grin

I'm going to try to ask "Monneron" directly, in case he's in a mood of giving more information about all these lots Wink

Jérôme Cool
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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2004, 06:35:47 pm »

Just in case anyone misunderstood me.  It is not the patina that leads me to believe these coins are fake.  I am just saying I will not buy coins with this patina (particularly right now) because I believe this "hoard" is fake.  

My primary reason for believing these coins are fake is that this would be a miracle hoard full of coins with rare and interesting features.  Yes, I know they are not the usual Siscia coins.  They are, even for Arelate, too rare, too interesting and too strange.  It is too impossible for me to believe to be possible.  

I also do not believe they are ancient imitations.  Ancient forgers did not care about selecting rare and interesting little variations.  But, this forger has selected them.  I suspect because they are all done from Patrick Bruun`s book "Constantinian coinage of Arelate" (mentioned in an earlier post).

Another reason I believe they are all fake is that they all seem to be from the same hand.  That makes a very strange hoard.  I do believe Arelate had more than one celator.  

Finally, some of them just look way off to me and if I condemn some, I condemn them all.  
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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2004, 06:52:46 pm »

Joe,

  I agree that in some cases, the style is strange, but I see many other examples which are ok for me (see for instance pict. of replies#8 & 9), with good hoard patinas, and if I accept many of them, I accept them all (I would not believe in the"salting" of fakes among a good hoard).
You may be right about the number of rarities in the hoard but ... we don't know how many coins this hoard was made of; hundreds? thousands? Huh It's then easy to find several interesting ex.

Jérôme  Cool
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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2004, 07:05:34 pm »

Quote
many other examples which are ok for me (see for instance pict. of replies#8 & 9), with good hoard patinas

I haven't been in this game for too long, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that those patinas are far from real. They've been created with a synthetic (modern) chemical wash. More members will back me up, many with years and years of experience.

Evan
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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2004, 07:10:29 pm »

...I would not believe in the"salting" of fakes among a good hoard...

Unfortunately, I have seen this but only once.

You may be right about the number of rarities in the hoard but ... we don't know how many coins this hoard was made of; hundreds? thousands? Huh It's then easy to find several interesting ex.

You have a good point, but where are the rest of them?
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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2004, 07:27:10 pm »

If this was one batch of coins I might be able to buy off on the hoard theory. But this seller has been posting these same coins for what, a couple months now? with Dozens of coins posted every week. I with joe on this one just seems a stretch to believe.
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