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Author Topic: How to tell Virtus and Mars  (Read 11260 times)

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Offline Gert

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How to tell Virtus and Mars
« on: April 05, 2004, 06:13:23 am »
LS

I've been wondering about how the reference-books manage to tell the difference between Virtus and Mars (This question arose, by the way, while trying to attribute a Gallienus Ant. The reverse shows a figure almost always identified as 'Mars', but the legend states 'VIRTVS AVGG'. So why not identify the figure as Virtus?) What are your thoughts on this:

- It seems to me Virtus and Mars are depicted in the same way.
- The legends 'MARS' and 'VIRTVS' accompanying the figure with helmet, shield and spear (and trophey) do not seem to be the final word in identifying the figure. Some references claim the figure with 'VIRTVS' is Mars.

Are all these attributions merely arbitrary or are there some strong grounds in identifying Virtus and Mars?

Best regards,
Gert

Offline Jochen

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2004, 07:46:41 am »
Hi Gert!

There is an important difference between VIRTVS and MARS. MARS is male, but
VIRTVS is female! So she appears draped and often reminiscent of an Amazon!
But your are right: Sometimes it is difficult to decide between these two, for she often wears a helmet and holding a spear and parazoonium.

Regards,
Jochen

Offline maridvnvm

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2004, 08:55:45 am »
Doesn't Virtvs derive from vir meaning manliness, which would be strange to depict with a femal? I haven' t seen any depictions that would be taken as female and am surprised that Virtvs would be female. I remain to be proven wrong here. Does anyone else know?
Martin

Offline Gert

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2004, 08:57:30 am »


With this post I'm trying to put my finger on the experts's choice of interpreting an image as any of both. Thank you for thinking along.

Concerning the female-male thing, I think there's more to it than that. Consider for example this image. It's the reverse of a Gallienus ant which illustrates the personification 'Virtus' in Sear's book (RCV). But why 'Virtus' and not 'Mars'? Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't tell any female features. I presume mr. Sear chooses 'Virtus' not because of the image, but because of the legend which reads 'Virtus of the augusti', which is plural. That would most likely go accompanied with a depiction of Virtus, not of Mars.

Gert

Offline Gert

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2004, 09:00:42 am »
In reply to Maridvnvm: isn't a personification by definition female?

Gert

Offline maridvnvm

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2004, 09:19:01 am »
I was unaware that a personification was by definition female. It contrdicts information at the following site

http://www.mythome.org/romegodevol.html

which places Virtus as male.

I am now confused.

Martin

Offline Gert

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2004, 09:23:08 am »
Well, I can be wrong! Sorry to confuse you. I am now wondering where Jochen found out that Virtus was female.

Gert

Offline maridvnvm

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2004, 09:32:43 am »
The following is from Doug Smith's great site

"'Courage' is a helmeted soldier in armor holding a spear, victory or shield. Virtus can be distinguished from the god Mars who is usually shown nude. Some coins appear to show Virtus as a female figure (appropriate since the word is feminine declention). "

http://www.ancientcoinmarket.com/ds/personifications/1.html

Regards,
Martin

Offline curtislclay

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2004, 10:37:27 am »
    The sex of a personification is determined by the grammatical gender of his or her name.  
    Thus Honos and Genius are male, while Liberalitas, Victoria, Salus, and, yes, Virtus, are female.
    The normal female characteristic of Virtus is drapery attached on the l. shoulder only, leaving her r. breast bare.  Of course it takes a well engraved and well preserved specimen to show this detail clearly.
    The legend, however, need not always name the figure depicted.
     Thus we find PROVIDENTIA AVG with Annona under Sev. Alex., meaning that the emperor's foresight was assuring the grain supply of Rome.  
     Similarly VIRTVTI AVGVSTI with Hercules under Gord. III, since Hercules constantly displayed courage and valor; or the Virtus legend with type of the emperor riding down an enemy, displaying his own valor.
      VIRTVS AVG can also accompany the type of Mars, naked except for helmet and flying cloak, advancing r. holding spear and trophy over shoulder.
      According to Goebl, the VIRTVS AVG(G) type of Valerian and Gallienus, as illustrated by Sear, can show either a female Virtus or a male Mars, depending on the issue!  However the illustrations in his Aufbau book are not clear enough to show the difference.
     
Curtis Clay

Offline Jochen

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2004, 12:27:16 pm »
Hi Gert!

Virtus is feminine in Latin grammar in spite of her masculine quality. In German it is no problem, for 'Mannhaftigkeit, Männlichkeit' (= manliness) is feminine too!

Regards,
Jochen

Offline curtislclay

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2004, 01:17:32 pm »
     Thank God at least courage (der Mut) is masculine!
Curtis Clay

Offline maridvnvm

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2004, 10:11:03 am »
Quote
The normal female characteristic of Virtus is drapery attached on the l. shoulder only, leaving her r. breast bare.


Sorry to dredge up an old thread but here is an example of Virtvs that clearly shows what Curtis was mentioning about the drapery on the left shoulder.



Regards,
Martin

Offline slokind

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2004, 06:59:12 pm »
When I had to teach 8th-grade children Latin, I made them memorize as a motto, SEX does not equal GENDER!  As for God's Mut, Nun ist das Heil und die Kraft und das Reich und die Macht unseres Gottes seines Christus geworden--hope  I remember that just right.  It is a short cantata, or fragment of a cantata, by J. S. Bach, and my collection of monophonic LPs is not easy to get at now.  Put -tus or -tas on any stem, and you get a feminine abstract noun.
Pat Lawrence

Offline mwilson603

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Re:How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2007, 05:34:13 pm »
       The normal female characteristic of Virtus is drapery attached on the l. shoulder only, leaving her r. breast bare.  Of course it takes a well engraved and well preserved specimen to show this detail clearly.
I know this is an old thread, but I knew it existed and therefore didn't want to start a new one.

I am half way through cleaning a reasonable Claudius II coin. (Tough job as well with rock hard malachite scattered liberally around the place.)  Anyway, I believe it is RIC V-1 Mediolanum with a P in exe, which according to RIC, (Well Danes sheets actually  :) ), should be Mars

However, the figure clearly has 2 breasts showing.  Following on from Curtis' description above, if it is a female representation then there should usually be drapery covering one, but there isn't.  There is drapery tucked into a belt back and front to protect her modesty, but definitely nothing around the chest, which not to get too graphic, under magnification even has both nipples still visible.  (I think you should be able to see that on my pathetic attempt at taking a snap.)

So who is this, and what gender would you assign it? If it is Mars he has definitely been using hormone replacement patches!

regards

Mark

Offline slokind

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Re: How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2007, 06:17:36 pm »
Whatever that Claudius II reverse figure 'has showing", it is the Mars type that goes back to the Augustan period.  The distinction, which is just what Curtis says, applies to figures in armor, basically just standing there and representing the heroic qualities (vir means hero as well as merely male homo sapiens, so virtus is heroic manliness, not just what currently is meant by 'masculinity').  Even though Roman coin art is rather modest about breast development, showing one pectoral nude means that it is a feminine personification, not MarsVirtus Exercitus or Virtus Augusti is not Mars.
Virtus is never more nude than a soldier is.  The tiptoe-traipsing Mars type is practically nude, and Virtus never is.
The rule distinguishing Virtus from Mars is for figures that to some extent resemble each other.
I really don't think that engraver knew what he was doing or cared what it meant.
Pat L.

Offline mwilson603

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Re: How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2007, 06:39:07 pm »
So a very slender Mars, with female hips and a B cup then? 

Surely I'm not seeing something that isn't there, and there can be no way of seeing that reverse figure as masculine? 

So maybe like you say, a fairly skillful but disinterested engraver.  Still, it seems very odd for them to have understood that it is Mars represented, which they must have done for the helmet and spear to have been engraved, but then to engrave a very feminine figure.

regards

Mark

Offline slokind

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Re: How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2007, 11:49:00 pm »
What you are seeing is simply what one engraver did.  Did it on a Type known to everyone empire-wide as Mars.  The ability to push a graver and any interest in iconography are not always related.  I don't think the spaniel-ear treatment of the breast meant anything at all.  This is not something that recurred, as when a beautiful young Indian Bodhisattva in the hands of first Chinese, then Japanese, sculpture AND worship actually did become feminine.  This is just a curiosity committed by a Claudius II mint employee, to whom the image was somewhat alien.
Pat L.

Offline Minos

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Re: How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2009, 11:22:00 am »
This thread has passed away long ago but, still, it is an interesting one. Found it while searching for infos on a follis I have in my gallery with reverse described as showing Virtus in RIC, but to some members it would rather be Mars. Personally, I dont really know what to think about it...

Is there a r. breast visible on this one (would still be borderline if there is...) ?

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2009, 03:52:59 pm »
That looks like Mars to me. Virtus' breast is clearly feminine!
Robert Brenchley

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Offline Jochen

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Re: How to tell Virtus and Mars
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2009, 04:02:44 pm »
Obviously Mars! Virtus usually looks like an Amazon.

Best regards

 

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