Lucca, Lotario I HRE and Duke Manfred, 840 - 855, Billon Denaro

[Joe Sermarini]

From the tag:

Lucca, Lotario I HRE and Duke Manfred, 840 - 855, Billon Denaro, Biaggi 1050, 0.600g (apparently clipped, about half the full weight), 14.4mm

+ IMPERATOR, Lotario monogram
+ MAINFRIDVX, LVCA in circular arrangement

This is apparently a very rare type and the consignor wants a lot of money ($1400).  I am fairly certain it is Lucca.  Looking at Biaggi, the obverse could be a Lotario monogram.  Nothing else looks like a better match, but lacking expertise in the type, I am hoping for confirmation. 

[Meepzorp]

Hi Joe,

Did you try CNI? I don't have that CNI volume (volume #11, Tuscany, minor mints). I have a few original CNI volumes, but not that one. But you can look at all CNI volumes online. Try visiting "numismaticadellostato.it".

Is it CNI, Tuscany (volume #11), coin #20? There is a Lotario I and Manfredo coin on page 60-61 of that volume. The photo is in table IV on page 455. It looks similar to your coin, but I don't know if it is an exact match.

Meepzorp

[Joe Sermarini]

I have seen the references. The issue is, as you said, "It looks similar... but I don't know if it is an exact match." To sell it attributed as Lotario I, I need to know if it is an exact match.

[Meepzorp]

Hi Joe,

I don't know if you will ever get the "exact match" that you are looking for. Your coin is so crudely struck and/or such low grade that it may be impossible to get a definitive assessment.

But I just found another potential problem or complication. You may already be aware of this. But, in case you aren't, I wanted to let you be aware of this. I have all of Varesi's MIR reference books. So, I decided to look in the MIR, Tuscany, minor mints volume. When I looked under Lotario I and Manfredo (840-855), there were no coins listed. And this is what it says, "Nota: per l'identificazione della moneta riportata dal CNI, p. 60 (tav. IV, 19) si veda l'esemplare riportato sotto RANIERI Duca di Toscana (1012-1028)."

When I looked under Ranieri (1012-1028), coin #104 is listed. It looks just like the CNI Lotario I and Manfredo coin. It is classified as an R5 coin, AR, 1.21 g, 16 mm. This is what it says, "Nota: questa moneta e presente soltanto nella Collezione Reale ed e stata erroneamente attribuita a un ipotetico duca Manfredo. La leggenda, letta erroneamente "MAINFRIDVX" dai compilitori del CNI, va interpretata "+RAINERIDVX"..... Il suo monogramma sostituisce in alto con una "R" la "V" di quello di Ugo....."

Apparently, the coin was mis-attributed by CNI (and Biaggi too?).

And, according to Varesi, Lotario I and Manfredo didn't mint any coins at all. There are none listed.

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

Hi Joe,

Your coin looks like so many of the numerous Lucca coins. Because of the condition, I don't know if anyone could ever pinpoint it to any one particular ruler. I can't read any of the legend. It may be a common Lucca coin. I don't know how the consignor could possibly say that it is a Lotario/Ranieri issue. That's really a stretch. How is the consignor differentiating it from the other Lucca issues? What criteria is he using?

Meepzorp

[Joe Sermarini]

I agree entirely with your last post and that is exactly what I told the consignor before I made the first post in this thread.  But I told him I would ask for expert opinions before I return it. 

[BIRDSOFPREY]

Hi Joe,

  I also looked in Grierson's "MEC Volume I" and Jim Robert's "Silver Coins of Medieval France" under the Carolingian section.  Neither work has any mention of any coin by Lothar I in Lucca.  Grierson has two coins of Lothar I in Italy, but these are in Milan and Pavia with a reverse of mint in a field.  Also these coins are of considerably better fabric and fineness.  Hope this helps.

Dave