CAMPANIA, Neapolis: Unclear symbol above

[Molinari]

This coin was part of a group lot I won recently.  I'm having trouble figuring out the symbol above the man-faced bull.  The old collector tag says Sambon 624, which would mean it is a fly, but that isn't correct and the rest of the design doesn't match that Sambon number either.

My best guess so far is a dolphin swimming left, which was then obscured by a counter-mark.  Any opinions?  Sorry for the photo quality but I only had a few minutes between diaper changes!

It is also interesting that below the man-faced bull is a   , then a K between the legs and an I before the creature.  I haven't found that combination in any of my notes either.

The best part is, I bought the lot for another coin and this mystery is just a bonus

[Enodia]

Alfred Hands lists 'winged hippocamp' as one of the symbols used above the bronze MFB, and this certainly could be what we see here.

interesting type Nick.

~ Peter

[Meepzorp]

Hi Nick,

Strange coin.

If it is a countermark, then it looks like the bottom part of a rudder. But, if it is a countermark, then there should be a flat spot on the obverse. And there isn't. At least, I don't see one.

The symbol may be a plow. To me, it looks similar to the plow on a Sicily, Kentoripai coin. But, if it is countermarked, then the symbol may be distorted beyond recognition.

The lambda, K, I under the MFB is very strange. Specifically, I've never seen that letter combination below a Campania MFB. And generally, I don't ever recall seeing anything like that below a Campania MFB, where the letters are spread/scattered between the bull's legs.

And something else seems "off" to me - the ethnic in exergue. It doesn't look like "NEOPOLITON" (in Greek), nor does it look like any other Campania city. Is the lambda upside-down? It looks like a "V". And where is the "T"?

Meepzorp

[JBF]

Rutter says that the "Euboic lambda" is sometimes used for Neapolis.  Also, ethnics can be garbled or misspelled (my words) for Neapolis.  I was disappointed that his book on the coins of Campania doesn't seem to treat bronzes.
Later in this thread, after figuring out the coin or after the possibilities are exhausted, could someone address what good references are there for Campanian bronzes?

[Enodia]

Hands lists the following as symbols above the MFB...
"an eight-rayed star, a dolphin, an arrow, star and cresent, wreath, Phrygian helmet, tripod, a dove in a crown, bunch of grapes in a crown, star in a crown, Helios facing, a cock, a cantharus, a fulmen, a lyre, winged hippocamp, buckler, a flower between letters, an eagle to left, bull's head, a swallow, a serpent, cornucopia, a head in profile with a trident head below."

of these, the winged hippocamp seems the only one which fits. it is crouching(?) right with wings folded back, very much like the image on the t-shirt below but with head in profile to right.
i certainly don't see a fly or a plow, nor do i see any convincing evidence of a countermark.

as far as the ethnic goes, that is another kettle of fish.
it obviously doesn't say Neapolis, but then this series is notorious for bungled  insciptions. however this doesn't seem to be bungled as much as a different language, possibly Oscan or Samnite. that at least would explain the apparently inverted lambda.
but as to what it actually says, i'm still in the dark.

a mystery (for now).

~ Peter

[Molinari]

Thanks for the help guys.  I like the idea of a winged hippocamp!

What work by Hands are you referring to, Peter?  I'll have to review it for my MFB project.

I'll try and get a better image/reading of the inscription but it is probably just an ancient typo.

The letters below the creature are very interesting.  I think I've seen letters between legs before but I'll have to check my notes an I think it was on the silver didrachm series.

[Enodia]

hi Nick,

the book is 'Coins of Magna Graecia. The Coinage of the Greek Colonies of Southern Italy' by Alfred Watson Hands (1909). you can usually find a reprint for bout $20-30, and it may even be available free online.
the section on Neapolis is rather extensive but certainly not complete, however the local histories are somewhat helpful in putting all the various numismatic data into perspective.

unfortunately there is no mention of Hyria or Nola, two MFB cities with a heavy native influence.

good luck!
~ Peter

[rover1.3]

...the book is 'Coins of Magna Graecia. The Coinage of the Greek Colonies of Southern Italy' by Alfred Watson Hands (1909)...

The book is available online : http://archive.org/details/coinsofmagnagrae00hand

[Molinari]

Awesome, thanks guys

[Meepzorp]

Hi Peter,

You stated: "this series is notorious for bungled inscriptions".

Huh?

That is news to me.

I specialize in collecting Campania coins. And I haven't noticed a disproportionate number of bungled inscriptions on them, compared to other Greek coins.

Yes, it is true that "Neapolis" is spelled many different ways on these coins. But, to me, that appears to be more a a "chronological thing" or a "period thing". I don't think it is a "bungled inscription" or "mis-spelled words". 

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

Hi Peter,

You stated that you were "in the dark" as to what the inscription says.

Assuming it is Greek, this is what I see: ...Pi(?), O, V, ?, N, T(?)...

Of course, if it is Oscan or something else, all bets are off. But it looks Greek to me. I've seen many Campania coins with Oscan legends, and this doesn't look like one.

Could it be an ancient (barbarian/celtic?) imitation?

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

I keep studying and studying the symbol. And I still don't see a "winged hippocamp". In my mind, it doesn't look anything remotely like one. Maybe you guys are seeing something that I don't see.

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

Rutter says that the "Euboic lambda" is sometimes used for Neapolis.  Also, ethnics can be garbled or misspelled (my words) for Neapolis.  I was disappointed that his book on the coins of Campania doesn't seem to treat bronzes.
Later in this thread, after figuring out the coin or after the possibilities are exhausted, could someone address what good references are there for Campanian bronzes?

Hi JBF,

You asked about good references for Campania bronzes.

My "go to" reference is SNG ANS. Yes, it is heavily loaded in silver,and there could be more bronzes in it. And it is notorious for a lack of dates. But I think it is still an excellent reference. It is my standard reference for all Magna Graecia coins.

Sambon is excellent too. But it has its own share of problems. There's that whole "lack of photos" thing. And it is very old and somewhat out-dated.

Of course, you can always try Nick's online MFB site.

Meepzorp

[Molinari]

Hi folks,

I keep studying and studying the symbol. And I still don't see a "winged hippocamp". In my mind, it doesn't look anything remotely like one. Maybe you guys are seeing something that I don't see.

Meepzorp

I think we are seeing just the tail of the winged hippocamp, if indeed it is one.  The letter after V appears to be H in hand. 

[Enodia]

i can see the entire beast...

[Molinari]

Now I see it!  I think you are right.  I had thought the wing was the end of the tail.

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

I sort of see the "winged hippocamp" now. But it is really a stretch. The body segments are all broken up. There is a gap between the head and belly. And there is another gap between the belly and feet. Is it supposed to look like that? Is there a photo in a reference book of a winged hippocamp symbol on a Campania bronze coin that we can use as a reference?

Peter, when you did that "blue graphics thing", were you looking at a photo in a reference book? Or did you just imagine what it "should" look like in your head?

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

I keep studying and studying the symbol. And I still don't see a "winged hippocamp". In my mind, it doesn't look anything remotely like one. Maybe you guys are seeing something that I don't see.

Meepzorp

I think we are seeing just the tail of the winged hippocamp, if indeed it is one.  The letter after V appears to be H in hand. 

Hi folks,

Let's assume it is an "H". And let's also assume that the "V" is actually an upside-down lambda, which another poster suggested above.

Then, in English, the inscription would read: "...POLHNT..."

Meepzorp

[Molinari]

Hi folks,

I sort of see the "winged hippocamp" now. But it is really a stretch. The body segments are all broken up. There is a gap between the head and belly. And there is another gap between the belly and feet. Is it supposed to look like that? Is there a photo in a reference book of a winged hippocamp symbol on a Campania bronze coin that we can use as a reference?

Peter, when you did that "blue graphics thing", were you looking at a photo in a reference book? Or did you just imagine what it "should" look like in your head?

Meepzorp

I don't think it is that great a stretch considering the condition of the coin.  Perhaps it is an imitation, which would also explain the strange inscription.

[Molinari]

Hi Peter,

You stated: "this series is notorious for bungled inscriptions".

Huh?

That is news to me.

I specialize in collecting Campania coins. And I haven't noticed a disproportionate number of bungled inscriptions on them, compared to other Greek coins.

Yes, it is true that "Neapolis" is spelled many different ways on these coins. But, to me, that appears to be more a a "chronological thing" or a "period thing". I don't think it is a "bungled inscription" or "mis-spelled words". 

Meepzorp

Here are a couple bungled inscriptions I found on the silver series (by Sambon number):


353. Barbaric imitation of Sambon 341,  (N)OYPOLI in ex.

392.  ILOPENZTH (retro) above.

Most, like you say, are just alternate spellings, although many appear retrograde.

[Molinari]

From the BnF:

[Meepzorp]

Hi folks,

There are no similarities between the winged hippocamp on Nick's coin and the one on the BNF example.

If it is a winged hippocamp, it looks "celticized" or stylized (like the castles on Medieval/Crusader coins). So, yes, it could be an ancient imitation, as I mentioned above.

Meepzorp

[Meepzorp]

Hi Peter,

You stated: "this series is notorious for bungled inscriptions".

Huh?

That is news to me.

I specialize in collecting Campania coins. And I haven't noticed a disproportionate number of bungled inscriptions on them, compared to other Greek coins.

Yes, it is true that "Neapolis" is spelled many different ways on these coins. But, to me, that appears to be more a a "chronological thing" or a "period thing". I don't think it is a "bungled inscription" or "mis-spelled words". 

Meepzorp

Here are a couple bungled inscriptions I found on the silver series (by Sambon number):


353. Barbaric imitation of Sambon 341,  (N)OYPOLI in ex.

392.  ILOPENZTH (retro) above.

Most, like you say, are just alternate spellings, although many appear retrograde.

Hi folks,

On Campania, Neapolis AR didrachms, there are several different spellings of the "Neapolis" inscription (in Greek, of course).

If you look at SNG ANS, it gives the different spellings. Yes, the spelling seems to change over the decades - much like fashion and clothing styles change. This isn't "carved in stone" because SNG ANS doesn't give dates. But it does appear to arrange coins in somewhat of a chronological order. However, the spelling is usually consistent within a particular series (within a specific symbol series, for example).

This is not "mis-spelling", as another poster alluded to above. It is more like "changing fashion".

Meepzorp

[Taras]

Intriguing issue.
I'm not 100% sure this coin is from Neapolis (If I had time I would check for other campanian or samnite mints). If from Neapolis, it would be an unlisted variety, not even Taliercio reports anything like this.
I will study in deep when I'll be back from my vacation.
Regards

Nico

P.S. Nick, the pic is bad, in hand can you see traces of tooling?

[Molinari]

There are no traces of tooling so far as I can tell.  I thought maybe another nearby mint but I haven't found a match.  The nearby mints generally have victory above (except Cales) and I don't think we see that here. I'm starting to lean more and more toward a contemporary imitation, which is exciting because I haven't seen many!