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Author Topic: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze  (Read 11601 times)

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Offline Arados

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Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« on: June 09, 2013, 09:22:50 am »
Hi Guys,

I bought this fine looking Marathenian mint a week ago and it is by far one of my best Phoenician coins to date !

With the coins orange Patina and clear date and letters it wasn´t difficult to identify.

Is there anybody who shares my passion for Phoenician coins ?

Martin R

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-97756

Offline Lee S

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Re: Phoenician Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 04:26:01 am »
 +++ +++ +++ +++

Nice Coin!!  ;D

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Phoenician Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2013, 03:21:30 am »
Quote from: Martin R on June 09, 2013, 09:22:50 am
Hi Guys,

I bought this fine looking Marathenian mint a week ago and it is by far one of my best Phoenician coins to date !

With the coins orange Patina and clear date and letters it wasn´t difficult to identify.

Is there anybody who shares my passion for Phoenician coins ?

Martin R

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4655

The bronze coins of Marathos are indeed interesting.  A handful of coastal Phoenician cities seem to have escaped conquest and domination by Greeks and remained independent - Marathos being one of them - long after others (e.g. Tyre) became effectively Greek colonies.   Marathos and Arados seem to have remained independent even of the Ptolemaic empire that occupied many other towns, and the Ptolemies operated many mints nearby (e.g. Tyre) until losing those possessions to Antiochos III ca. 195 BC.  Thereafter we see some 2nd C. Seleukid bronze issues of the conquered towns (e.g. Tyre, Sidon, Berytos) with Seleukid king portraits and both Greek and Phoenician lettering, but not Marathos.  It's interesting to see coins from this area and this fairly late time period with Greek imagery but only Phoenician lettering - somewhat reminiscent of earlier coins of Carthaginian Sicily that imitate some local imagery but retain Phoenician script.  It would be interesting to learn how Marathos remained independent.

PtolemAE

Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2013, 02:58:26 pm »
Interesting reading PtolemAE   +++

I have done some extensive digging into the subject of their independence, but i´m not quite sure why they remained so, it could have been politics (see; Gerostratus), trade, warmongering or it could have been the Gods their neighbours feared the most.  ;D

Gerostratus 350-332 B.C, was king or chief of Aradus whose dominion extended over the northern part of Phoenicia, including the large and wealthy seaports of Marathos and Mariamme. Its title came from the small island of Arados , overagainst Marathus, in which, evedently for security, was the chiefs priciple residence. Probably negotiation had preceded.

The Aradian ships were serving with the Persian fleet, but Gerostratus was ready for a change of sovereignty. What came to general knowledge was that Gerostratus offered to Alexander that allegiance, for himself and his country, which before had been paid to the King of Persia, in token of which he sent a present of a golden crown, which Straton, son of Gerostratus was allowed to place, in public, on Alexanders head, who then proceeded to Marathos.

Archaeologists digging at the site of ancient Amrit (Marathos), have found conflicting evidence to whether the people were Phoenicians, Egyptians, Persians, or Greeks.

The answer is more than likely that the Marathenians lived out their lives in a very cosmopolitan fashion, and were very adaptable and conscious of their geographical location, thus, in the end angering their neighbours, and causing their eventual demise and destruction (see; The inhabitants of Aradus).

The inhabitants of Aradus planned to destroy the city of Marathos in Phoenicia. They communicated secretly with Ammonius, who at the time was viceroy in Syria under Alexander Bala, and offered him three hundred talents to betray Marathos to them. After that, Ammonius sent Isidorus to Marathos, with instructions to pretend he was there on business, when the true reason was to seize Marathos and give it to the Aradians.

The Marathenians feared that the King favoured the Aradians more than themselfs and denied the King´s soldiers entrance into the city. From among their oldest citizens, they selected ten of the most distinguished and sent them as suppliants to the isle of Aradus. These men took along some of the oldest images of their gods that they had in their city, in the hope of thereby appeasing the fury of the Aradians.

The Aradians were extremely displeased and ignored their humble speeches. Disregarding all reverence for the gods, they broke the images and most shamefully trampled them under their feet. When they tried to stone the envoys to death, some of the older men who intervened had trouble getting them to prison safely. The envoys protested and pleaded the privileges of suppliants and of the sacred gods.

Even tho the rights of the envoys were not to be violated, these men were massacred by a company of imputant young fellows. Immediately afterwards, the authors of this villainy came into the assembly. Having taken the signet rings from the Marathenians whom they had killed, they now forged letters to the Marathian people in the envoys names, in which they said that the Aradians would quickly send them some supplies.

They hoped to deceive the Marathenians and have the Aradian forces admitted into their city, in the belief that they had come to help them. For this reason, the Aradians seized all ships belonging to private men, in the fear that someone might possibly reveal their plot to Marathians. In spite of all this, a certain sailor who was a friend to the Marathenians, pitied their sad situation.

He usually sailed in the neighbouring sea. But since his ship had been taken, he boldley swam across the mile wide strait by the night and told the Marathians that the Aradians planned to attack them. When the Aradians realised that their plot had been revealed, they abandoned their plan of sending them letters. Instead, they openly attacked Marathus and captured the city, demolishing it and sharing its territory among themselves.

I know this does not answer completley why the Marathenians remained independent, but does explain why the coins of Marathus disappeared. If i find a documented answer to independency, i will let you know.  

The image is of Marathos (Amrit) ruins.

Offline RomaDelendaest

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Re: Phoenician Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 03:50:17 am »
Hello Arados! I too as a new collector am enamoured with Phoenician coins! I just bought an Arados silver obol from 400-350 BC which was in VF condition and is simply awesome!

I prefer silver to bronze in most cases because the detail always seems to be much finer and I have found no bronze coins of Phoenicia 500-300 BC. Currently I'm about to buy a 1/16 shekel from Byblos here on the Forum.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?param=63278q00.jpg&vpar=598&zpg=74655&fld=https://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins2/

Particularly I like how they portray their warships in most of their coins.



Offline Molinari

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Re: Phoenician Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 07:17:44 am »
Hi Guys,

I bought this fine looking Marathenian mint a week ago and it is by far one of my best Phoenician coins to date !

With the coins orange Patina and clear date and letters it wasn´t difficult to identify.

Is there anybody who shares my passion for Phoenician coins ?

Martin R

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4655

I love Phoenician coins too. Here's my gallery:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4083

PS: Your link is broken!

Offline RomaDelendaest

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Re: Phoenician Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 08:10:24 am »
Very nice Molinari! I like the variety. Though personally I like the older Phoenician coins. I'm curious, I can only find silvers of when Phoenicia and its cities were Persian vassals.


I agree, very interesting thread Arados! I enjoyed reading!

Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2013, 08:02:57 am »
Sorry for the delay in answering you guys....been on a hectic one week trip to Rome & Pompeii.


Hi RomaDelendaest, thanks for responding to this thread i hope you found it informative and interesting enough to fuel your continued interest in Phoenician coins.

Personally i am hooked and only occasionally acquire coins from other areas of the Greek Empire and only if they have a galley on the reverse of course.  ;)

Regarding your question about bronze coinage dating 500-300 B.C, the first bronze coinage of Byblus was released during the reign of Antiochus IV according to Rouvier which would date it between 175–164 B.C. The autonomous bronze coinage did not appear until the regal Seleucid coinage had ceased around 100 B.C. Of course this varies from city to city, for example the first bronze Aradian coin in circulation dates from 350 B.C (Obv: Figure of marine deity left / Rev: Galley right).

I hope this answered your question.

Your next accusation is a beauty.  +++



I fixed the link Molinari, thanks for the tip.

The reason for the link been broken is that i´m in the process of making some extensive changes to my gallery which includes a new filing system for all my Phoenician. Hopefully years down the line it might help others in the study of coinage from this region.

To be honest i stumbled across your coins quite a while back, i particularly like the first coin in your gallery, Zeus – Galley, beautiful orange patina and good detail, also your veiled bust of Berekike II with Marathos standing left on the reverse is also appealing to me, as are all your other coins in your collection.  +++

Offline Molinari

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Re: Phoenician Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2014, 01:54:23 pm »
AE 20, Phoenicia, Arados, 92-93 AD. Obv: Radiate head of Helios facing right. Rev: ΑΡΑΔΙΩΝ to left, basket containing grapes, vine leaves, and two barely ears in center, BNT to right, Q above. Dark green patina with some hints of red. Lindgren III, 1346, B.M.C.347-9, Cop. 74.5.57, Hoover HGC 10, 83 (R3).  

Here is my final attribution based on the info you gave me.  Once I get the weight I'll ask you to help narrow down the Duyrat attribution ;)

And, while I'm on Phoenicians, here is another I just re-photographed:

AE 17, Phoenicia, Marathos, 166/5 or 155/4 BC. Obv: Tyche right with palm behind. Rev: Marathos standing with aplustre, Aradian era date 94 (166/5) or 105 (155/4) to right, aXF. SG 6041, Hoover HGC 10, 202 (R1).

I list it as aXF, but it is hard to imagine a better example.

Thank you for getting me to look at my Phoenician coinage again, they've been ignored for too long!

Modify: I have added Duyrat, Frédérique. Arados Hellénistique: Étude historique et monétaire. (Beirut, 2005) to my want list.

Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2014, 07:03:08 am »

AE 17, Phoenicia, Marathos, 166/5 or 155/4 BC. Obv: Tyche right with palm behind. Rev: Marathos standing with aplustre, Aradian era date 94 (166/5) or 105 (155/4) to right, aXF. SG 6041, Hoover HGC 10, 202 (R1).

I list it as aXF, but it is hard to imagine a better example.

Thank you for getting me to look at my Phoenician coinage again, they've been ignored for too long!

Modify: I have added Duyrat, Frédérique. Arados Hellénistique: Étude historique et monétaire. (Beirut, 2005) to my want list.

I would also list it has axf or possibly lower-end xf. Yet regardless of your coins grading, it is still a most desirable coin and also a rarity in respect to era date. I am over the moon that you have re-discovered your passion for Phoenician mint, brush of the cobwebs and familiarise yourself once again with your wonderful collection of Phoenician. Please don't ignore them, enjoy them all Nick. If not you know where to find me. :)

I would tentatively date your coin at 107 or 153-52 B.C, the date slightly runs of the flan but otherwise matches up perfectly with the coin described in BMC Phoenicia Pg.124 No.33. All letters and unusual monogram seem to correspond with this coin, additionally the letter mem (M) in left field (see attached image) does not appear between era dates 104-106.

Andreas (areich) has also an exceptional coin of this type, that appears to be dated 103 or 157-156 B.C. (link below)

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-94622

Duyrat 2005 is by far my best investment, so much so i bought a hard copy and also downloaded a copy, both payed for with hard earned cash.  +++ ;)





Offline Molinari

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2014, 02:30:27 pm »
Here's another from Marathos, which I have listed as follows:

AE 17, Phoenicia, Marathos, c 166-152/1 BC, Obv: Tyche with palm behind. Rev: Marathos to left, Aradian era date unclear, gVF. SG 6041, Hoover HGC 10, 202 (R1).


Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2014, 07:39:06 am »
Here's another from Marathos, which I have listed as follows:

AE 17, Phoenicia, Marathos, c 166-152/1 BC, Obv: Tyche with palm behind. Rev: Marathos to left, Aradian era date unclear, gVF. SG 6041, Hoover HGC 10, 202 (R1).



Hi Nick,

I am pretty confident that your coin has an Aradian era date of 104 or 156/5 B.C, this ties in nicely with my earlier remark about mem not appearing on Marathenian mint of this type, between the years 104-106. (see attached image)

Thanks for sharing.  +++


Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2014, 08:14:54 am »
Not the best strike of a coin

Imagine a warm sunny day in Marathos many years ago, two artisan engravers feeling the heat having hammered hundreds of coins. When from out of nowhere a damsel walks past the entrance to their workshop and the inevitable happens. A strike of flan, now i maybe clutching at straws but something took the strikers eye of the job momentarily as can be clearly seen on my latest purchase. A real pity because the reverse strike was infinitely better.  ;D

The coin seems to be unpublished in respect to the era date and does not share the same Phoenician letters of any other of it´s type.

Duyrat studied these coins in LES MONNAYAGES SYRIANS in 2002, working with 36 examples. In which the most recent coin that could be positively identified being of era date 108, she did however have three further coins that were deemed to be from 100+ but none of these share the same Phoenician letters.

I´m absolutely certain there are many more coins sharing the same date waiting to be discovered or possibly already residing in a collections elsewhere, but until they are published i will have to look upon my coin has a rarity.


The coins remarkably good reverse confidently helps me place it to a Aradian era date of 109.

Phoenicia, Marathos 151-150 B.C

AE 16.95mm (Thickness 2.09mm), weight 3.11g, die axis = 1h (30 degrees), denomination C.

Obverse: Turreted head of Tyche right, palm frond over shoulder, border of dots.

Reverse: Marthos left, holding aphlaston and leaning on column, in lower left field gimel (G) with taw (T) below, in right field mem (M) resh (R) & taw (T) meanng Marathos with shin (S) below, far left Marathenian (=Aradian) era date 109 read upwards.



Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2014, 12:11:14 pm »
Not sure if my eyesight is deceiving me, can anybody else see a double strike on the obverse or is it my imagination ?


Offline Molinari

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2014, 01:11:35 pm »
I think it's just the remaining dirt and cleaning marks that make it appear that way.  If it is double-struck it is very subtle.

Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2014, 05:22:11 am »
I think it's just the remaining dirt and cleaning marks that make it appear that way.  If it is double-struck it is very subtle.

Thanks Nick, i will have a closer look at the coin later on today. Your probably right, i could be making something out of nothing. There seems to be some crud on the right side obverse.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2014, 10:06:53 am »
Here is another one of my coins from Marathos, which I have identified as follows:

Phoenicia, Marathos, AE 23, 9.94g, 165/4 B.C. Obv: Veiled bust of Berekike II of Egypt facing right, Phoenician behind and before(?), dotted border. Rev: Marathos standing left, holding apluster and resting on column, dotted border, Aradian era date 95 (165/4 BC) to right. SGII 6037, Hoover HCG 10, 193 (C).

I believe I dated it correctly, right?  I'm not sure where I got the "Phoenician behind and before" line in describing the obverse, because I don't see any script on either of my examples of this coin.

Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2014, 01:31:26 pm »
You have dated your coin correctly at Aradian era date 95 but i am also a little confused with "Phoenician behind and before(?)"  ??? Not really sure why you wrote that, did you possibly spend too long browsing through your wonderful collection of coins that night. Only you know the answer to that question.  ;D

There is dispute surrounding who is actually depicted on the obverse, could it really be Berekike II ? She was born in 227 or 226 BC and died in 221 BC, approximately one year after her death they started producing this type of mint. There are those who liken her with Astarte (Ishtar), i personally feel that this choice would be more appropriate with respect to known local beliefs. One other possibility would be Cleopatra I who lived between the years 204-176 BC, she was born 18 years after these coins were first minted. I know this does not make much sense, but when comparing all the individual years of coinage from 222 BC through to 152 BC the female bust does vary tremendously. Duyrat describes her diplomatically has "de désse voilée à droits", but all three alternatives mentioned could be possible candidates and should be studied more closely in the future.

I would attribute your coin as follows Nick,

Phoenicia, Marathos 165-164 B.C

Obverse: Veiled bust of Astarte right, border of dots.

Reverse: Marthos left, holding aphlaston and leaning on column, in lower left field daleph (D), in right field mem (M) resh (R) & taw (T) meaning Marathos with ayin (´) below, far left Marathenian (=Aradian) era date 95.


Unfortunately, the letters taw and ayin are of the flan and would have been located in the bottom right hand field, nevertheless a reasonably good strike on both sides.

Thanks once again for sharing your Phoenician coins.  +++

P.S Did you get around to buying Duyrat 2005 yet ?

Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2014, 06:22:21 am »
"Phoenician behind and before(?)"  ??? Not really sure why you wrote that, did you possibly spend too long browsing through your wonderful collection of coins that night. Only you know the answer to that question.  ;D

Sorry Nick, i do have a wicked sense of humour !! Hope you weren´t too offended ?

There does appear to be lettering on the right side of the obverse, can you make out any of the phoenician letters ?

I think i can see mem, would you agree ? I need to have a closer look at the coins in Duyrat 2002.

All the best
Martin

P.S I will post the findings later, any chance of a close up of the letters in question.


Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2014, 06:28:40 am »
I have have looked at the majority of coins on ACSEARCH & CNG but cannot see lettering on the right side of the obverse on any of them. But i could make out a letter or mintmark on five or six coins on the left side of Astarte/Berekike II.

Have you struck gold (bronze) again with your Marathos coin ?

I know that BNF (Paris museum) has some exceptional examples of this type so i will take a look there later tonight.

Martin R

Offline Molinari

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2014, 08:09:25 am »
Sorry to reply so late.  I will examine the coin in hand asap and try to get better photographs as well.  It may take a few days...everyone I know seems to have been born/had a significant event take place in April!

Nick

Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2014, 02:33:07 pm »
Nick, in reply to your query whether or not there could be a possibility of Phoenician letters or mint mark to the rear and front of Astarte/Berenike II.

I am now fairly confident having now completed my research that we can discount any chance of lettering or mint marks on these coins. After an extensive search of the internet i was able to find samples spanning most of the known years of production. I accumulated approximately 76 individual coins from various sources, which i list below in order of era date and also specify the total number of coins attributed to the specific dates. Also listed are numerous coins that were unfortunately impossible to identify in respect to era date, still for the purpose in hand, it must be stressed that these coins helped hugely with the outcome of this undertaking.

Era date 39 - 1 coin / Era date 40 - 3 coins / Era date 73 - 2 coins / Era date 89 - 1 coin / Era date 90 - 1 coin / Era date 95 - 3 coins / Era date 96 - 3 coins / Era date 98 - 2 coins / Era date 100 - 1 coin / Era date 102 - 2 coins / Era date 103 - 9 coins / Era date 104 - 5 coins / Era date 105 - 12 coins / Era date 106 - 3 coins / Era date 107 - 2 coins / Era date 108 - 7 coins and finally Era date 109 - 3 coins / Unattributed - 16 coins / . See attached graph and obverse mosaic.

As you can clearly see on the observe of your coin there are distinctive marks that i feel are purely die faults, we can clearly see the border of dots passing directly through the area of doubt on your coin.

Hope this was a satisfactory answer Nick  ;D

I would like to thank BNF for allowing me to use imagery from their wonderful coin collection.

All the best
Martin R

Edit: The mosaic can be read from left to right in order of era date containing one coin from each year and ending with the unattributed coin.


 


Offline Molinari

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2014, 06:41:42 pm »
Great work, Martin, thank you for all the information. I find it interesting that these always seem to be really well preserved.  I think it's partially due to the climate, but I wonder if these had a short circulation period, too?

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2014, 09:41:57 am »
Nice coin and interesting thread Martin, I understand your passion for Phoenician coins.
I like these phoenecian bronzes too and share my coins from Arados and Marathos.

H.Bakkar

Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2014, 01:11:39 pm »
Nice coin and interesting thread Martin, I understand your passion for Phoenician coins.
I like these phoenecian bronzes too and share my coins from Arados and Marathos.

H.Bakkar

Thanks for your kind words, i spend many hours studying Phoenician coins so your appreciation of this thread is most welcome.

What a wonderful collection of coins you have posted. All are in very good condition and easily identifiable, i particularly like your Duyrat série 4 coin bottom right. It might not look like the most desirable choice but it is the rarest on your photograph.

Thanks for sharing

Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2014, 11:42:58 am »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2015, 03:36:34 pm »

Offline Nassif

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2015, 10:28:33 am »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2015, 03:32:25 am »

Offline Nassif

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2015, 10:34:34 am »

Offline Arados

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2015, 03:06:45 pm »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2015, 02:33:44 pm »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2015, 08:24:32 pm »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2015, 03:09:55 pm »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2016, 07:48:47 am »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2017, 02:28:20 pm »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2017, 01:54:05 pm »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2018, 08:31:59 am »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2018, 08:18:06 am »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2023, 08:50:58 am »
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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2023, 06:39:37 am »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2023, 02:09:26 pm »
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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2023, 02:31:01 pm »

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Re: Phoenicia Marathos - Bronze
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2023, 11:24:32 am »
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