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Author Topic: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts  (Read 14991 times)

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Offline Mayadigger

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Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« on: May 29, 2013, 09:52:23 pm »
Ave!

     We received this broken Roman Capitoline Jupiter statuette about one month ago. The 1st photo is 'as received', the 2nd photo is after all the encrustations were removed but original patina still intact. As seen, to my eye, it was unacceptable. The 3rd photo is the final product.
     Joe S and others mentioned that MSR was not 'acceptable' for cleaning coins, etc. but I must beg to differ. I have had excellent results with this product on 'crusty' coins, despite all the negative reviews. It makes me wonder if any of the 'naysayers' have actually tried MSR under a number of different circumstances.
     This 1st-3rd Cent artifact was easy to clean, although it took about 6-8 hours of actual physical/mechanical cleaning time. All we used to clean the statue was MSR, a common scalpel and a Dremel SBBB. Then Jax Brown and Ren Wax as a finish.
     Your thoughts?
     Best regards,
     Kevin

   
     
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Offline Lee S

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2013, 02:42:25 pm »
Bloody good work mate!!!

  I'm sure some of the purists will object, but you have taken an interesting, but featureless ancient object to a museum piece... I know which version I would prefer!!

 +++ ;D +++ ;D +++ ;D +++ ;D   

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 03:09:21 pm »
No no no no no. Nice looking statue, but for a coin, the second status looks far more preferable and I'd have stopped before the MSR bottle was opened. The second status has a natural light green look, the surfaces look natural, unwaxed, untampered with, yet still fully cleaned. The third status, if on a coin, looks as stripped and repatinated and reminds me of ancient statues with overdone 19th century restoration that one sees in museums (or even like completely modern pieces made to look a little old), and one wishes had a bit more of an ancient feel to it. It's not as this was even called for - it's throwing away a beautiful original patina, stripping it down and replacing it with "jax brown" and "ren wax". I think this is all I need to know about MSR. It seems to take metal much too far for my liking, from an ancient to a modern look.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 03:23:58 pm »
I must agree with Andrew.  I like the second one best even though you can see more detail on the third.  To me it looks over done but that's just my opinion. 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 03:33:25 pm »
I must agree with Andrew.  I like the second one best even though you can see more detail on the third.  To me it looks over done but that's just my opinion. 

It appears to me that this is the danger with this MSR stuff. If you do this to a coin it's irreversible, and on some coins the results might look worse. I can understand why it is not supported by Forvm. Of course, individual collectors might wish for the quick and dramatic results on stubborn and low value crusties, for which this may be appropriate.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2013, 03:48:13 pm »
I'm not opposed to MSR in all cases, but in this case, I would absolutely choose the second version over the third.  That was a nice patina!

If you hadn't shown the second, I'd say nice improvement, but now I think the "restoration" has gone too far.

Offline Adrian W

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2013, 04:12:23 pm »
I agree I like the 2nd one as well as I thought that looked great but when I looked at the 3rd picture I found that to be some what shocking as thousands of years of patina just got forever lost
I would have stopped at 2
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Offline Lee S

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2013, 04:18:57 pm »
I suppose beauty is all in the eye of the beholder, and in most cases I agree wholeheartedly with the moto " PATINA IS GOOD! " , however, in this case I think the cleaning is warranted...  

  If an old painting is restored, should a layer of oxidisation of the original colours be preserved because the purists prefer it that way, or should the painting be restored to original state, ( or as near as possible..)? What did the artist have in mind when he painted it? With the exception of Mount Rushmore I think I know what the answer is in 99% of cases....

  I believe that the creator of this little piece of art would rather have folks look upon it as he crafted it, and not with the ravages of time as the main attraction, rather than the original art as an attractive side note... And as such I believe this is a great restoration job... Sympathetic and respectful, but revealing the beauty of a piece of art, and not just revering the age of the item, but celebrating its original beauty...

  In this case.. Patina be damned.. Let the Art shine!!!



   ( Just to reiterate my position, I do not advocate Lye, Electrolysis, or other harsh coin / artifact stripping methods... my favorite coins have wonderful patina.
      HOWEVER... ( It is a big however... ) If there is no other way to restore an item back to some semblance of original state, then why not... the success rate with many of these methods is usually low, and chances of catastrophic fail high, but if all else fails, why the heck not..... Just remember the hippocratic oath... "Do no harm")  

Offline Lee S

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2013, 04:29:42 pm »
And as a side note... ( and I am sorry if this breaks forvm rules regarding price discussion...) ....

   But I imagine that the sale price of picture 3 will also be higher than picture 2, even if it is someway now "ruined" from a purist point of view? , It is obviously an instantly more commercial object... ( unless I am mistaken?)


  I suppose the root of my point is that as long as the "object" in question is not "restored" to a point lower in physical integrity than it arrived on the desk, I dont really have a problem... If you break it while cleaning it... thats bad... If you don't, you just like the green patina... Take the wax off and bury in PH neutral ground with instructions for your great grandkids to dig up in 100 years...... You did not really cause any harm, just interrupted the patination process a little.....

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2013, 02:16:54 am »
But I imagine that the sale price of picture 3 will also be higher than picture 2, even if it is someway now "ruined" from a purist point of view? , It is obviously an instantly more commercial object... ( unless I am mistaken?)

I agree with this - but would you drop a good-condition valuable but encrusted bronze coin into MSR to quickly reach stage 3, when with some careful and expert cleaning you might be able to get to stage 2. For a coin, stage 2 is almost always a more valuable stage to be at. It looks like MSR just gobbles up patina. I can imagine it would be fine for cleaning low value worn crusties or for museum-use in cleaning large hoards, but patina is a valuable thing for good quality coins.

Offline areich

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2013, 04:31:12 am »
In the case of these statuettes, patina is useful as a sign of authenticity. I would not buy the item in its present statue from a seller I don't know well. From the pictures I think, in hand, the depatinated item does not show significantly more detail than it did after the initial cleaning, it is just more photogenic now.
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Offline Roma_Orbis

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2013, 05:57:52 am »
This is particularly critical to keep original patina on ancient artifacts, as every artifact is unique, unlike coins, and oxidation is a very good sign of authenticity for bigger objects (not that the patina can't be faked, but on these objects, it's more obvious). Maybe a little more photogenic, but I think it was a terrible decision to strip the patina off the statuette. Ifever you don't agree, just browse e.g. Christie's, Sotheby's ancient art sales, and look at proposed bronze artifacts.

J.

Offline Lee S

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2013, 06:49:03 am »
So the documentation of the restoration process counts for nothing?

    I would have no problem buying this item, actually prefer Nr 3 version, and any doubts to its authenticity are allayed by the photographs... Perhaps if it had been restored 100 years ago then it would be a different matter, but when the restoration has been documented, using patina as a sign of authenticity is not a valid point. 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2013, 07:05:14 am »
Yes the documentation is worth something. Yes I'd like to have it, with the photos of the process. I'd still prefer, and would pay more money for, status-2, because documents can get separated and because it's anyway in much more handsome condition. It was fundamentally worth more.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2013, 07:22:15 am »
Patina is part of the history of these pieces. It can tell us how an object was buried and where.  When you strip it off you loose part of its story. For example coins from Syria have a dark black patina, coins from the Balkens have a green patina, coins in water have a "tiber" patina.  Look at the Riace bronzes.  The encrustations were removed but patina is in tact.  In fact they are in for a second cleaning now, each inch of them being meticulously cleaned without breaking the patina.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2013, 07:47:46 am »
I'd pay more for version 2, even with the photo documentation.

Offline Roma_Orbis

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2013, 08:40:30 am »
So the documentation of the restoration process counts for nothing?

    I would have no problem buying this item, actually prefer Nr 3 version, and any doubts to its authenticity are allayed by the photographs... Perhaps if it had been restored 100 years ago then it would be a different matter, but when the restoration has been documented, using patina as a sign of authenticity is not a valid point.  
No! An ancient work of art in bronze is always to be kept with its original patina; restorations must be mentioned, but restoration doesn't include the stripping of patina, especially to 'improve' its photogenic aspect. We're not dealing with coins here. Again, just browse ALL ancient art auctions.
a quick example:
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etc ...

J.

Offline Adrian W

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2013, 08:47:55 am »
What's done is done, what needs to considered with whether we like it or not its your item and you can do whatever you want with it, if you prefer it that way then that's all that really matters.

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Offline stlnats

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2013, 09:02:52 am »
Absolutely. And it is still a handsome piece, although frankly the surface reminds me a bit of the statues sold in museum shops.

However what is missing from the documentation is what I'd call photo 2a, after the patina was stripped but before the brown coloring and wax was added.  And I wonder what the tenor of the discussion would be had an artificial green repatination been attempted.

 :(  

Offline SC

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2013, 09:13:26 am »
In the state shown in photo #1 it certainly required work.  Details were obscured by encrustations and, more seriously, it appears to have had active bronze disease.

However, I too greatly prefer the result in photo #2.  As Areich noted the loss of patina poses a serious handicap when it comes to authenticity.  Yes photos of the process, analysis of style, etc are still possible but a great factor is gone.

I am curious as to why you say it was "unacceptable" to your eye in state #2?  Is it just aesthetics or was there still active BD?

Shawn


 
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2013, 10:40:30 am »
Knowing this is authentic and has been restored, I would take the third (final) specimen. I can clearly see more details in the abdomen and face. The patina in the second photo still obscures details. In the world of ancient bronzes, as long as the artifact is deemed authentic (VIP point,) the removal of a rough patina does not destroy the value of the item. Some patinas are beautiful, some detract. I believe this one required further improvement.

A quick perusal of small bronzes from Royal Athena demonstrates the wide range of restorations. At the gallery, nobody is running for the doors in horror.

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Offline Roma_Orbis

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2013, 11:13:43 am »
Cleaning, yes (indeed as for coins, they have been cleaned at some time) but not full stripping. From a patina standpoint, I can see that much of these bronzes have natural (even partial or cleaned) patina, and not stripped/repatinated surfaces.
And for bronze repatination, the problem is obviously the same as for coins: sometimes nice color and surface, but many manipulations can be hidden below (including total fakery).

For the particular item discussed here, I would have gone for #2, with further smoothing of the patina to reveal more details: remaining original patina partially kept, and better aesthetics.

J.

Offline Mayadigger

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2013, 07:29:36 pm »
Ave!

Wow! I do love a firestorm, don't you?  :)

     The use of MSR on coins is not the discussion here, but rather on bronze artifacts.
     Patina, patina, patina...yadda, yadda, yadda...blah, blah, blah. Of course, keeping the original patina on any ancient Ae/copper coin or object should always come first. No one knows that more than I, believe it or not. That being said, let's move back to the subject of Jupiter. Pay heed, perhaps you'll learn something.  :angel:
    
     Many of you preferred the 2nd photo. Well and all. But it was my mistake to not mention that after getting the statuette to this stage, I discovered that it was riddled with BD. What to do? I used a cotton swab to apply GG's BD Killer to the many effected areas, rather than immerse the entire object in order to preserve the rest of the original patina. The BD was cured, but it caused horrible-looking swatches of bright copper that left the statue looking like it had a bad case of the measles...or worse.
     At this point, our only recourse to preserve and restore Jupiter to any sort of sellable condition was to strip it off and re-patina. Zero smoothing tools were used, btw.
     Thanks 4to2CentBC for the link to Royal Athena. It's a eye-popper! Too bad my little Jupiter is missing his arms and legs, huh? He'd fit right in with the others.
     If any of you naysayers (Andrew, Andreas, et al) have taken the time to actually click the link, I wonder why none of you are complaining that these beautiful, five figure antiquities are devoid of their original patina, so are inherently worthless due to their lack of the aforementioned? Or do just think that they popped out of the ground in this condition? C'mon, please...I guarantee that all have been stripped, smoothed and re-patinated in one form or another, so get a life or try it yourself.

     See below for more MSR Before/After photos -
    
     In this case, a small (75mm/3 inch) Egyptian Ae statuette that we received for restoration. The before picture is not exactly 'as received' - Sheri had to remind to take 'before' photos a few days into the cleaning process. Honestly, when it was dropped off to [REMOVED BY ADMIN], I had never seen such a mess of impossibly encrusted/corroded/crystalized/bronzed diseased piece of junk. The gaps between the arms were pretty much non-existent, trust me.
     Once again, we used multiple MSR soaks and SBBBing just to get to where we could actually see what we were working with. Then a full soak in GG's BD Killer for the cure. FYI - there never was a patina, just a mess. More MSR soaks, SBBB and a common scalpel to scrape down to the bare metal. (The horror!).
     Once done, we could now see all the details: fingers, toes, eyes, skirt and even his belly button! No 'smoothing' tools were necessary. Applications of JAX Brown with a cotton swab, multiple coats Ren Wax with buffing between, and finished. Apologies for the poor 'finished' photo. In hand, this lovely piece of ancient Egyptian history is beautiful and worthy of anyone's collection.
     Got any complaints? No worry, I have a thick skin. Do your worst.  8)

     Best regards,

     Kevin

    
    
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Offline Molinari

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2013, 09:17:17 pm »
Well, the fact that it had active bronze disease was pretty significant information to leave out!  You should have posted the picture of what it looked like after you treated it.  Without seeing that, it's impossible to say if you made the right choice.

Offline Mayadigger

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2013, 11:01:16 pm »
Ave!

Right choice? You're kidding, of course.

Best,

Kevin
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2013, 06:12:46 am »
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2013, 06:22:43 am »
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2013, 01:05:29 pm »

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2013, 01:47:27 pm »
Andreas Reich

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2013, 02:02:41 pm »

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Offline Mayadigger

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2013, 05:00:56 pm »
"Goodbye, Livia: never forget our marriage!"

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2013, 05:09:42 pm »
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2013, 06:13:35 pm »
"Goodbye, Livia: never forget our marriage!"

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2013, 06:16:04 am »
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline Molinari

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2013, 07:05:48 am »

Offline Mayadigger

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2013, 09:45:56 pm »
"Goodbye, Livia: never forget our marriage!"

Offline SC

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2013, 01:48:38 pm »
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2013, 03:08:36 pm »

Offline Mayadigger

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Re: Mint State Restoration and Ancient Artifacts
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2013, 07:36:48 pm »
"Goodbye, Livia: never forget our marriage!"

 

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