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Author Topic: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?  (Read 1994 times)

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vanter

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Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« on: April 03, 2013, 02:24:17 pm »

Offline Arados

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2013, 03:53:44 pm »
It looks to me like a diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure with the reverse side being double cornucopia flanked by ribbons, i could be wrong.

vanter

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2013, 03:56:34 pm »
Quote from: Martin R on April 03, 2013, 03:53:44 pm
It looks to me like a diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure with the reverse side being double cornucopia flanked by ribbons, i could be wrong.
In my opnion I believe is a Cleopatra VII, but is important confirm with the friends of Forum


Offline djmacdo

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2013, 04:28:11 pm »
This type was formerly attributed to the mid-second century B.C. and many scholars would still place it there.  More recently there have been attempts to assign this to Cleopatra VII.  How persuasive those attempts have been is, I feel, largely a matter of personal feeling.

Mac

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2013, 04:36:09 pm »
Quote from: Martin R on April 03, 2013, 04:03:45 pm
Here is a similar coin i found on Forvm

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?param=38336q00.jpg&vpar=1916&zpg=49061&fld=https://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins2/

Martin R

Forum's descriptive listing for this Ptolemy IV type gives that widely accepted attribution as found in the scholarly works of Svoronos and SNG Copenhagen.  Female heads of various goddesses and queens (Isis, Aphrodite, Libya, Arsinoe, Berenike, etc.) are found on many coin types issued by Ptolemaic kings over about 150 years.   Forum also lists Cleopatra VII bronzes, the ones that have her name right on them (Svoronos 1871 and 1872).  They are plentiful as well.

PtolemAE


Offline SRukke

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 01:16:22 am »
Here's mine.

Ptolemaic Kingdom, 13mm, 1.7g, Cleopatra VII, Philopator, 51 - 30 B.C., Paphos, Cyprus
OBV: diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure
REV: Double cornucopiae, ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ
Kreuzer p. 44 first illustration, Svoronos 1160 (Ptolemy IV), SNG Cop 649,

There is some dispute but Kreuzer in his book assembles evidence dating this type to Cleopatra VII instead of the reign of Ptolemy IV used in older references.
Bronze dichalkon, Kreuzer p. 44, first illustration; Svoronos 1160 (Ptolemy IV); Weiser -; SNG Cop 649, diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure;


Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 02:49:17 am »
Here's mine.

Ptolemaic Kingdom, 13mm, 1.7g, Cleopatra VII, Philopator, 51 - 30 B.C., Paphos, Cyprus
OBV: diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure
REV: Double cornucopiae, ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ
Kreuzer p. 44 first illustration, Svoronos 1160 (Ptolemy IV), SNG Cop 649,

There is some dispute but Kreuzer in his book assembles evidence dating this type to Cleopatra VII instead of the reign of Ptolemy IV used in older references.
Bronze dichalkon, Kreuzer p. 44, first illustration; Svoronos 1160 (Ptolemy IV); Weiser -; SNG Cop 649, diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure;


 


What is a 'melon coiffure,?

What is the dispute?

Ptolemae

Offline benito

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 04:26:59 am »
Dispute is AFAIK  Kreuzer versus Svoronos. I'm all for Svoronos.

Offline Matt Kreuzer

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 08:05:54 am »
In previous Forum discussions, I have listed facts that support an attribution to Cleopatra VII.  Facts matter.

"Matt Kreuzer here.  I am the author of the book that is the focus of attention here.

I wish this argument could be decided by facts rather than emotion.  Oliver Hoover and I don't get along.  I question the motivation for his review.  And I am not alone in my view of his work.  Rather than calling each other names, can we discuss the facts that support the attribution to Cleopatra VII?

There are a large group of facts that support the attribution to Cleopatra VII over Arsinoe III.  I hope we can focus on these.

1) The flans do not have central dimples.  This is unlike ALL other bronzes produced by Ptolemaic mints in Cyprus, Phoenicia, Egypt and Kyrene between c. 264 BC and c. 96 BC.  ALL OF THEM!!!

2) The flans fit a series of denominations with the other late Ptolemaic coins.  There is a 1/16 (scarce), 1/8 (this coin, Svoronos 1161), 1/4, 1/2 and the 1 (rare) denomination with a very similar design.

2a) The Paphos denominations above parallel those of Alexandria for Cleopatra VII.

3) The middle coins in this series are the most common Greek coins on Cyprus.

4) The finds at "Paphos II", which include limestone molds used for casting the blanks, support the use of these types together.

5) Other bronze finds support this pattern, including published expeditions.

6) Arsinoe III was not a powerful queen, by comparison.  There is little explanation for a massive coinage of tiny bronzes on Cyprus.  Her only other coinage is some gold octadrachms issued c. 200 BC.

7) The female portrait does have a down-turned mouth, melon-coif, and (often a) scepter.  Like other Cleopatra coins, there is a range of portraits.

This list of facts is a stronger list than is usually associated with an attribution.  In particular, it is wonderful to have the mint itself.  There is a lot of evidence here, which should be discussed."

There is not much to support an attribution to Arsinoe III, who appears only on a modest gold issue after her death.  Why Arsinoe III?  In fact, the only argument I have heard is "Svoronos says . . . ."   That's not really a fact.  And, some of Svoronos is not accepted already.  For instance, all of the silver Ptolemaic tetradrachms attributed by Svoronos to Cleopatra VII are corrected to Ptolemy XII by his German colleague.  His coins attributed to Ptolemy XII are corrected by the same German author to Cleopatra VII (and 2nd reign of Ptolemy XII).  I mention this to show that, even in his day, there were fact-based disagreements with Svoronos

I have laid out some facts that support a hypothesis.  It's a better argument than many.  The other side lacks facts.

Matt Kreuzer

Offline SRukke

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 10:17:49 am »
 

What is a 'melon coiffure,?

What is the dispute?

Ptolemae
[/quote]

Ptolemaic queens' hair was usually braided and held back. Seen from the side, this style resembles a melon, and so it is described as a melon coiffure. (Wikipedia)

The dispute is addressed in Matt's argument. I would be curious as to your thoughts on this.

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2013, 12:44:03 pm »
 

What is a 'melon coiffure,?

What is the dispute?

Ptolemae

Ptolemaic queens' hair was usually braided and held back. Seen from the side, this style resembles a melon, and so it is described as a melon coiffure. (Wikipedia)

The dispute is addressed in Matt's argument. I would be curious as to your thoughts on this.
[/quote]

Do you mean like the hairstyle seen on Berenike portrait bronzes of the mid 3rd C. BC. (that, like Cleo VII bronzes, have the queens' name right on them)?

The book and its review in the ANS journal by the much-published numismatic scholar and (now) ANS Journal Editor, Oliver Hoover, speak for themselves.  There's are links on ptolemybronze.com that lead to the book and to the review.  In deference to our generous host, further discussion is best taken to a different venue.

PtolemAE

Offline Matt Kreuzer

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2013, 02:15:16 pm »

"The book and its review in the ANS journal by the much-published numismatic scholar and (now) ANS Journal Editor, Oliver Hoover, speak for themselves.  There's are links on ptolemybronze.com that lead to the book and to the review.  In deference to our generous host, further discussion is best taken to a different venue."

Still without any facts, eh?  This has been the struggle with the supporters of the Svoronos attribution all along.  Lacking facts, they quote Svoronos as a fact.  He is not. 

Offline areich

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2013, 03:09:30 pm »
I can't see why this can't be discussed here, with rational arguments. Just pointing out that a book was unfavourably reviewed by someone else is not much of a contribution to a discussion.
Andreas Reich

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2013, 05:28:02 pm »
I can't see why this can't be discussed here, with rational arguments. Just pointing out that a book was unfavourably reviewed by someone else is not much of a contribution to a discussion.

Anyone can read the book and the review. 

A full and open discussion here would break the rules of this group.

PtolemAE


Offline monolith

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2024, 02:56:38 pm »
I'm not an ancient scholar and therefore I cannot confirm nor dispute the statements that Kreuzer, Svoronos, or Oliver Hoover have made. All of them are far more knowledgeable of this subject matter than I am. However, I do believe I have tangible evidence that may support Kreuzer's theory about the smaller bronze units (1/4 and 1/8 units) being produced under Cleopatra VII. Here's why:

1. Cleopatra VII was queen of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt from 51 - 30 B.C.
2. Ptolemy IV was king of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt from 221 to 204 B.C.
3. Arsinoe III (spouse of Ptolemy IV) was queen of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt from 220 to 204 B.C.
4. Octavian engaged in a war of propaganda, forced Antony's allies in the Roman Senate to flee Rome in 32 BC, and declared war on Cleopatra. After defeating Antony and Cleopatra's naval fleet at the 31 BC Battle of Actium, Octavian's forces invaded Egypt in 30 BC and defeated Antony, leading to Antony's suicide. Basically the control of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt transitioned to Roman control around 30 B.C.
5. The 1/4 and 1/8 bronze units, along with other larger denominations, were produced with the Greek god Zeus on the obverse and Zeus Salaminios holding grain ears on the reverse (reference coin 1 below). The grain ears were representative of the fertile Nile soil which provide an abundant food source and therefore wealth to the region. However at some point in time, most likely around 30 B.C., the reverse portrait of Zeus holding grain ears was modified to a portrait of Zeus holding a Roman patera (reference coin 2 below).

Why was this portrait modified to a Roman symbol? This could not and would not have occurred under Ptolemaic leadership. Therefore I believe this is a transitional coin that was minted shortly after the defeat of Cleopatra VII, sometime around 30 B.C., therefore supporting Kreuzer's theory that, at least, these coins were produced under Cleopatra VII / Octavian around 30 B.C. and not under Ptolemy IV / Arsinoe III from 221 to 204 B.C.


Coin 1 - Issued before 30 B.C. under Cleopatra VII (Ptolemaic rule) - not my coin



Coin 2 - Issued around 30 B.C. under Cleopatra VII / Octavian (Roman rule) - coin in my collection


Offline Matt Kreuzer

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2024, 06:38:57 pm »
Interesting observations.  I agree that your coin is the rare later variety that was influenced by the Romans.  It is post Actium
Octavian did not take Alexandria until almost a year after ActiumHis seizure of Cyprus is less well documented, but lacking ships the Ptolemaic Kingdom had no way to defend it.  So 30 BC is a realistic estimate.  The average weight of the common type is about 3.5g, but the Romanized ones like yours are usually below 2 grams. 

The statue of Zeus Salamis also appears on many later coins of Roman Cyprus.

Matt Kreuzer

Offline monolith

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2024, 03:01:38 pm »
My coin is 14 mm, 1.82 g - based on auction provided information; I still need to confirm this data. What are your thoughts regarding the “Σ” symbol if front of the portrait of Zeus on the obverse? Is this a date or mint mark?

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2024, 07:00:44 pm »
My coin is 14 mm, 1.82 g - based on auction provided information; I still need to confirm this data. What are your thoughts regarding the “Σ” symbol if front of the portrait of Zeus on the obverse? Is this a date or mint mark?

Is the old rumor still abroad in the land that these anepigraphic small change local issue 'salaminos' bronze coins of 1st - 2nd C. BC Cyprus, naming no issuing authority at all, are Ptolemaic? Being anepigraphic opens many imaginative possibilities - none of which can be disproven :) IOW it can be attributed to whomever from around that time period, without any fear of contradiction. Said 'symbol' appears to be in the crudeness of the cast flan. The casting sprue doesn't likely convey any useful information, either.

PtolemAE

Offline Matt Kreuzer

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2024, 07:53:25 pm »

If you ignore all the evidence, these are coins lacking: issuing authority, place, weight, diameter, design.  However there is some evidence . . .

The type is common, but only on Cyprus.  The dig at the Paphos II site includes dozens of this 3g type, and it's 6g double and 1.5g half.  Each has a different design.  The 13g and 0.8g denominations were also found, but are by comparison rare.  The frequency of so many these coins being found together at this one place suggests that they circulated together in a base two system. 

The larger denominations were continued on Cyprus under Augustus and his successors, as seen in RPC I.

The casting sprue does convey some useful information.  These were struck in a time period where casting sprues were common.  Similarly, the lack of centration marks suggests a date after the Ptolemies in Cyprus stopped using this production method.   

There are some Cypriot coins of the Ptolemies that are rather earlier than the three types that are so common at Paphos II.  A few examples were found there as well.  These are a bit heavier, but apparently the same denominations.  Among these are the 7-9g dated bronzes, from an earlier period.  There are corresponding smaller undated bronzes of 3.5 - 4.5g, and also of ~2g.

Paphos II lists these ~3g Zeus / Zeus Salamis bronzes to the time of Cleopatra VII.  They are not mentioned by Svoronos, but he did not have a strong focus on Cyprus.  All of Cyprus was under Ptolemaic control from 294 to 31 BC, with a few months of Seleukid control in ~168 BC.  So these coins were issued under the Ptolemies.  They are a late Ptolemaic issue on Cyprus, based on size and the type of flan.  The 3g weight does fit into the denominations that were found together at Paphos II.

I hope that we can agree that these are not pre-Ptolemaic or post-Ptolemaic, right?

While we disagree about the specific date, I concur with Dan that the letters seen at 3:00 are most likely metal flaws that look somewhat like a letter.

Matt Kreuzer

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Re: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2024, 02:14:19 pm »
Quote from: Matt Kreuzer on January 21, 2024, 07:53:25 pm

If you ignore all the evidence, these are coins lacking: issuing authority, place, weight, diameter, design.  However there is some evidence . . .

The type is common, but only on Cyprus.  The dig at the Paphos II site includes dozens of this 3g type, and it's 6g double and 1.5g half.  Each has a different design.  The 13g and 0.8g denominations were also found, but are by comparison rare.  The frequency of so many these coins being found together at this one place suggests that they circulated together in a base two system. 

The larger denominations were continued on Cyprus under Augustus and his successors, as seen in RPC I.

The casting sprue does convey some useful information.  These were struck in a time period where casting sprues were common.  Similarly, the lack of centration marks suggests a date after the Ptolemies in Cyprus stopped using this production method.   

There are some Cypriot coins of the Ptolemies that are rather earlier than the three types that are so common at Paphos II.  A few examples were found there as well.  These are a bit heavier, but apparently the same denominations.  Among these are the 7-9g dated bronzes, from an earlier period.  There are corresponding smaller undated bronzes of 3.5 - 4.5g, and also of ~2g.

Paphos II lists these ~3g Zeus / Zeus Salamis bronzes to the time of Cleopatra VII.  They are not mentioned by Svoronos, but he did not have a strong focus on Cyprus.  All of Cyprus was under Ptolemaic control from 294 to 31 BC, with a few months of Seleukid control in ~168 BC.  So these coins were issued under the Ptolemies.  They are a late Ptolemaic issue on Cyprus, based on size and the type of flan.  The 3g weight does fit into the denominations that were found together at Paphos II.

I hope that we can agree that these are not pre-Ptolemaic or post-Ptolemaic, right?

While we disagree about the specific date, I concur with Dan that the letters seen at 3:00 are most likely metal flaws that look somewhat like a letter.

Matt Kreuzer

Thank you for reminding everyone that all the evidence points to a big fat 'we don't know' attribution for this coin type.

It's hard to overlook direct and clear physical evidence, immediately obvious to the most casual observer, that the issuer did *not* connect it to Ptolemaic rule. Nothing would have prevented the issuer from putting Ptolemy right on the coin - even just to 'fake' or imitate a connection to Ptolemaic origin.

That said, as you carefully enumerated, the other 'evidence' is so obviously equivocal so that, most parsimoniously and consistent with all the available evidence, it's likely an anonymous local issue of a indeterminate origin and issue duration from a time that may overlap the end of the Ptolemaic empire or be a bit later. It's an *exceedingly* long stretch to conclude it's Ptolemaic without any indication on the coin or any design link - e.g. Zeus Ammon or an eagle or something 'Ptolemaic'. But the old rumor nevertheless retains a furious tenacity :) Perhaps some future excavation will give us the additional information we'd need to be more certain about the issuer and date range.

Doesn't much matter; these are quite common and frequently offered for sale online at modest prices so anyone interested can find one for their collection. Occasionally a really nice one shows up but not too often. If someone wishes to denote 'Ptolemaic' on their tag it won't cause any great harm.

PtolemAE

 

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