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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Identification Help (Moderators: Varangian, Arados)  |  Topic: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Help ID - Cleopatra VII ?  (Read 1219 times)
vanter
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« on: April 03, 2013, 12:24:17 pm »

Cleopatra VII ?
11mm.
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Arados
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2013, 01:53:44 pm »

It looks to me like a diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure with the reverse side being double cornucopia flanked by ribbons, i could be wrong.
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vanter
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2013, 01:56:34 pm »

Quote from: Martin R on April 03, 2013, 01:53:44 pm
It looks to me like a diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure with the reverse side being double cornucopia flanked by ribbons, i could be wrong.
In my opnion I believe is a Cleopatra VII, but is important confirm with the friends of Forum
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2013, 02:03:45 pm »

Here is a similar coin i found on Forvm

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?param=38336q00.jpg&vpar=1916&zpg=49061&fld=http://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins2/

Martin R
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djmacdo
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2013, 02:28:11 pm »

This type was formerly attributed to the mid-second century B.C. and many scholars would still place it there.  More recently there have been attempts to assign this to Cleopatra VII.  How persuasive those attempts have been is, I feel, largely a matter of personal feeling.

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PtolemAE
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2013, 02:36:09 pm »

Quote from: Martin R on April 03, 2013, 02:03:45 pm

Forum's descriptive listing for this Ptolemy IV type gives that widely accepted attribution as found in the scholarly works of Svoronos and SNG Copenhagen.  Female heads of various goddesses and queens (Isis, Aphrodite, Libya, Arsinoe, Berenike, etc.) are found on many coin types issued by Ptolemaic kings over about 150 years.   Forum also lists Cleopatra VII bronzes, the ones that have her name right on them (Svoronos 1871 and 1872).  They are plentiful as well.

PtolemAE

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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2013, 11:16:22 pm »

Here's mine.

Ptolemaic Kingdom, 13mm, 1.7g, Cleopatra VII, Philopator, 51 - 30 B.C., Paphos, Cyprus
OBV: diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure
REV: Double cornucopiae, ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ
Kreuzer p. 44 first illustration, Svoronos 1160 (Ptolemy IV), SNG Cop 649,

There is some dispute but Kreuzer in his book assembles evidence dating this type to Cleopatra VII instead of the reign of Ptolemy IV used in older references.
Bronze dichalkon, Kreuzer p. 44, first illustration; Svoronos 1160 (Ptolemy IV); Weiser -; SNG Cop 649, diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure;

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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 12:49:17 am »

Here's mine.

Ptolemaic Kingdom, 13mm, 1.7g, Cleopatra VII, Philopator, 51 - 30 B.C., Paphos, Cyprus
OBV: diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure
REV: Double cornucopiae, ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ
Kreuzer p. 44 first illustration, Svoronos 1160 (Ptolemy IV), SNG Cop 649,

There is some dispute but Kreuzer in his book assembles evidence dating this type to Cleopatra VII instead of the reign of Ptolemy IV used in older references.
Bronze dichalkon, Kreuzer p. 44, first illustration; Svoronos 1160 (Ptolemy IV); Weiser -; SNG Cop 649, diademed bust of Cleopatra VII as Isis right, hair in melon-coiffure;


 


What is a 'melon coiffure,?

What is the dispute?

Ptolemae
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benito
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 02:26:59 am »

Dispute is AFAIK  Kreuzer versus Svoronos. I'm all for Svoronos.
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Matt Kreuzer
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 06:05:54 am »


In previous Forum discussions, I have listed facts that support an attribution to Cleopatra VII.  Facts matter.

"Matt Kreuzer here.  I am the author of the book that is the focus of attention here.

I wish this argument could be decided by facts rather than emotion.  Oliver Hoover and I don't get along.  I question the motivation for his review.  And I am not alone in my view of his work.  Rather than calling each other names, can we discuss the facts that support the attribution to Cleopatra VII?

There are a large group of facts that support the attribution to Cleopatra VII over Arsinoe III.  I hope we can focus on these.

1) The flans do not have central dimples.  This is unlike ALL other bronzes produced by Ptolemaic mints in Cyprus, Phoenicia, Egypt and Kyrene between c. 264 BC and c. 96 BC.  ALL OF THEM!!!

2) The flans fit a series of denominations with the other late Ptolemaic coins.  There is a 1/16 (scare), 1/8 (this coin, Svor. 1161), 1/4, 1/2 and the 1 (rare) denomination with a very similar design.

2a) The Paphos denominations above parallel those of Alexandria for Cleopatra VII.

3) The middle coins in this series are the most common Greek coins on Cyprus.

4) The finds at "Paphos II", which include limestone molds used for casting the blanks, support the use of these types together.

5) Other bronze finds support this pattern, including published expeditions.

6) Arsinoe III was not a powerful queen, by comparison.  There is little explanation for a massive coinage of tiny bronzes on Cyprus.  Her only other coinage is some gold octadrachms issued c. 200 BC.

7) The female portrait does have a down-turned mouth, melon-coif, and (often a) scepter.  Like other Cleopatra coins, there is a range of portraits.

This list of facts is a stronger list than is usually associated with an attribution.  In particular, it is wonderful to have the mint itself.  There is a lot of evidence here, which should be discussed."

There is not much to support an attribution to Arsinoe III, who appears only on a modest gold issue after her death.  Why Arsinoe III?  In fact, the only argument I have heard is "Svoronos says . . . ."   That's not really a fact.  And, some of Svoronos is not accepted already.  For instance, all of the silver Ptolemaic tetradrachms attributed by Svoronos to Cleopatra VII are corrected to Ptolemy XII by his German colleague.  His coins attributed to Ptolemy XII are corrected by the same German author to Cleopatra VII (and 2nd reign of Ptolemy XII).  I mention this to show that, even in his day, there were fact-based disagreements with Svoronos

I have laid out some facts that support a hypothesis.  It's a better argument than many.  The other side lacks facts.

Matt Kreuzer
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 08:17:49 am »

 

What is a 'melon coiffure,?

What is the dispute?

Ptolemae
[/quote]

Ptolemaic queens' hair was usually braided and held back. Seen from the side, this style resembles a melon, and so it is described as a melon coiffure. (Wikipedia)

The dispute is addressed in Matt's argument. I would be curious as to your thoughts on this.
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2013, 10:44:03 am »

 

What is a 'melon coiffure,?

What is the dispute?

Ptolemae

Ptolemaic queens' hair was usually braided and held back. Seen from the side, this style resembles a melon, and so it is described as a melon coiffure. (Wikipedia)

The dispute is addressed in Matt's argument. I would be curious as to your thoughts on this.
[/quote]

Do you mean like the hairstyle seen on Berenike portrait bronzes of the mid 3rd C. BC. (that, like Cleo VII bronzes, have the queens' name right on them)?

The book and its review in the ANS journal by the much-published numismatic scholar and (now) ANS Journal Editor, Oliver Hoover, speak for themselves.  There's are links on ptolemybronze.com that lead to the book and to the review.  In deference to our generous host, further discussion is best taken to a different venue.

PtolemAE
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Matt Kreuzer
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2013, 12:15:16 pm »


"The book and its review in the ANS journal by the much-published numismatic scholar and (now) ANS Journal Editor, Oliver Hoover, speak for themselves.  There's are links on ptolemybronze.com that lead to the book and to the review.  In deference to our generous host, further discussion is best taken to a different venue."

Still without any facts, eh?  This has been the struggle with the supporters of the Svoronos attribution all along.  Lacking facts, they quote Svoronos as a fact.  He is not. 
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2013, 01:09:30 pm »

I can't see why this can't be discussed here, with rational arguments. Just pointing out that a book was unfavourably reviewed by someone else is not much of a contribution to a discussion.
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2013, 03:28:02 pm »

I can't see why this can't be discussed here, with rational arguments. Just pointing out that a book was unfavourably reviewed by someone else is not much of a contribution to a discussion.

Anyone can read the book and the review. 

A full and open discussion here would break the rules of this group.

PtolemAE

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