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Author Topic: interesting coin die  (Read 7791 times)

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Offline HELEN S

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interesting coin die
« on: January 30, 2013, 03:27:04 am »
 

 i found this picture whilst trawling the net and thought it was interesting to put up

 During the Roman period a new innovation was tried: hinged coin dies which were pairs of dies joined together in a similar manner to tongs

Offline gallienus1

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Re: interesting coin die
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 07:14:40 am »
A typically clever and practical Roman solution to the problem of the dies slipping out of alignment. I have never seen hinged dies before, and all the contemporary Medieval illustrations I’ve seen show simple dies so this may have been one of the many technological innovations that was lost after the collapse of the Roman Empire.

Thanks very much for posting.

Best Regards,
Steve

Taras

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Re: interesting coin die
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 11:56:49 am »
Quote from: gallienus1 on January 30, 2013, 07:14:40 am

 this may have been one of the many technological innovations that was lost after the collapse of the Roman Empire.


gallienus1, It did not happen exactly like that.

Indeed, in the Byzantine era occurred an evolution of this technology.

The pic posted by Helen shows a pincer die for a gold solidus of Constans I, Antiochia mint, from the collection of the Cabinet des Médailles of the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris. (published in Babelon 1901 coll.897 ss.; and also in: Vermeule "Some notes in ancient dies and coining methodes". London 1954, p.35, n,58)

Here another pic of the same object, open


Using this kind of pincer Romans should strike heavy coins with two minters: one putting dies and flans in place and one striking, and some scholars think that in fact Romans used three minters, one putting flans in place and two striking by turns.

In the next pic a pincer die used in the VI century for a solidus of Justinn I, stored in the Fogg Art Museum (Vermeule "Some notes in ancient dies and coining methodes". London 1954, p.7):



As you can see this is quite a technological innovation, in fact now the work can be done by a single minter, putting flans and then striking, holding pincer in one hand and hammer in the other hand.

The theory which claimed that the high Middle Ages were "dark ages" is obsolete since at least 20 years ago. Modern scholars see that in those centuries there was a continuation of the evolution of civilization, who took other cultural forms, but it never really regressed.

Hope this can be of your interest.
Bye

Nico

Offline curtislclay

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Re: interesting coin die
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 01:33:07 pm »
some scholars think that in fact Romans used three minters, one putting flans in place and two striking by turns.

Is there any other evidence for the theory of two workmen "striking by turns", than the Roman imperial and provincial coins with intact obverses but reverses doublestruck with two contemporaneous dies, from which Colin Kraay deduced in conversation with myself in 1974, that the mint must have been employing two reverse dies alternately and in rapid rhythm at a single obverse die?

I have explained this admirable insight of Kraay's several times on Forvm, on other internet venues, and in Berk sale catalogues, and have just published it for the first time in a scholarly venue, namely in a review article in Num. Chronicle 2012 on B. Woytek's splendid new monograph on the Roman imperial coinage of Trajan. But I would be very interested to learn of any additional evidence supporting Kraay's idea!
Curtis Clay

Taras

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Re: interesting coin die
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2013, 02:35:09 pm »
Curtisclay can you post some pics showing samples of the intact obverses / doublestruck reverses please?

Offline curtislclay

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Re: interesting coin die
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 02:40:25 pm »
Several examples are illustrated here:

http://jan.imperialcoins.com/volume2/volume2-2.html

To repeat my question: do you know of any other evidence indicating this system of production?

Curtis Clay

Offline HELEN S

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Re: interesting coin die
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2013, 03:12:16 pm »


 a question please if the device posted by myself was used to create a coin of Constans and specifically the gold coin from antioch i will put up a photo of such a coin and ask what do you make of the small rectangluar mark in constans neck do you suppose it is from "the device" i find this most interesting

Constans AV Solidus. Struck 337-347 AD. CONSTANS AVG, laureate, draped & cuirassed bust right / VICTORIA AVG, Victory advancing left, holding trophy & palm, star in left field, LXXII right, SMAN• in ex

Taras

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Re: interesting coin die
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2013, 04:25:12 pm »
Several examples are illustrated here:

http://jan.imperialcoins.com/volume2/volume2-2.html

To repeat my question: do you know of any other evidence indicating this system of production?


To answer... No I don't know any other references about your hypothesis. Writing "two minters striking by turns" I meant simply to say two malleator (two men beating by turns with the hammer, using a large hammer held with both hands, while a third man, the suppostor, held clamped the pincer die), and not two men using different reverse dies (impossible, I think, using a pincer die), I heard about this issue during an archaeological conference, listening to a report about roman coins.
Be that as it may, your idea is very interesting!  8)



 a question please if the device posted by myself was used to create a coin of Constans and specifically the gold coin from antioch i will put up a photo of such a coin and ask what do you make of the small rectangluar mark in constans neck do you suppose it is from "the device" i find this most interesting


Helen I have no idea, sorry.

This is the first time I participate in a thread on Roman coins, guys you are very demanding in this vicinity! :)
Bye  :)

 

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