Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 18, 2014, 12:27:10 pm
Search Calendar Login Register

Recent Additions to Forum's Shop


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Authentication, Fakes and Frauds (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Tons of Modern Fake Dies confiscated in Sicily 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2  All Go Down Print
Author Topic: Tons of Modern Fake Dies confiscated in Sicily  (Read 1956 times)
Taras
Comitia Curiata
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« on: January 26, 2013, 08:55:16 am »

Today I'm surfing the net looking for informations concerning modern fakes of ancient coins.
I've found these shocking reports on the site of Department of Culture of Sicily, year 2004.

http://www.regione.sicilia.it/beniculturali/dirbenicult/carabinieri/museoritrovato/properties_view_col.asp?editid1=119

http://www.regione.sicilia.it/beniculturali/dirbenicult/carabinieri/museoritrovato/properties_view_col.asp?editid1=116


Translating:

Confiscation at Paternò (CT)  19/11/2004, private home:
659 fake dies,
55 raw fake dies,
30 reproductions of bronze sculptures,
403 tests (impressions of fake dies on lead).
17 reproductions of silver coins,
98 reproductions of bronze coins,
3500 plaster, wax and silicone casts.



Confiscation at Centuripe (EN)  26/10/2004, private home:
250 plaster casts
171 fake dies,
1696 Ancient coins (Greek, Roman and medieval),
256 coins deemed to be false,
195 archaeological bronze, silver and iron including brooches, rings, arrowheads, fragments of statues and nails,
12 fragments of ceramic vessels in black paint and clay figurines
1 block of oxidation, suitable for the production of fake patinas for the counterfeit coins.

 Cry
Logged

Taras
Comitia Curiata
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2013, 11:00:43 am »

I've found better pics..
Logged

Taras
Comitia Curiata
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2013, 03:14:42 pm »

I must confess that I might have preferred to remain in the dark about this. However, although it is very worrying, I think it is useful to know all these things.
Now I'll explain some quirks that I've seen at auction.
Like the two coins i post here, both from Sicily: Alaisa and Lipara. (the one from Alaisa was object of a past discussion on this forvm, but I can't find it, probably has been removed).

Looking at the reports of the Department of Culture, I think we can deduce the way in which the counterfeiters work:
First, they chose the coin to forge, they make casts, and create the fake die from a raw die.
Then they heat a genuine ancient coin, a specimen in very poor condition. (1696 Ancient coins in the report). So we can explain the orange peel look of the coins. On the heated ancient blank they mint the fake type using the modern die.
So the metal looks ancient, but the coin is a modern fake.
At the end they use the oxidation block to produce the fake patina, which is tipically green.

And at the end the unaware collector can go to hell, with his empty wallet, getting excited holding in his hands a beautiful fake Sad
Logged

Joe Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM STAFF
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5657


All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2013, 03:36:38 pm »

Fake coin reports (for any for which we have photos) please.
Logged

Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Taras
Comitia Curiata
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2013, 04:58:11 pm »

Fake coin reports (for any for which we have photos) please.

Done, but I had a problem with dies.
When I had to select the album in the Report Category I could not find "Modern Fake Dies" in the drop-down menu.
I posted them in the coin categories.
Logged

helcaraxe
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 446


« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 03:47:32 pm »

This makes me feel sad.

At least all the fake dies should be published properly!

Semper pax
helcaraxe
Logged

Taras
Comitia Curiata
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 01:44:14 pm »

Hi friends,
do you remember the Alaisa fake I posted on reply #4 of this thread?

Today a major house listed on auction a coin struck by the same fake dies (first attached pic).
The second attached image is a "collection" of pics of fake specimens sold in the last years, always on north european market (the third one is the same specimen on auction today).

Regards
Nico
Logged

JBF
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 04:37:11 pm »

I wish that collectors and dealers would try to give as much provenance as possible when they sell a coin, (tracing it back to old catalogues and references).  Trying to do that won't solve everything, but it would help.
Logged
Taras
Comitia Curiata
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2014, 04:55:35 pm »

I wish that collectors and dealers would try to give as much provenance as possible when they sell a coin, (tracing it back to old catalogues and references).  Trying to do that won't solve everything, but it would help.

I agree with you my friend, this should be the only way.

Another observation. The dies all appear to be cut in circular bronze rod, which is then sleeved with thick steel pipe for strength. This approach suggest that these dies are not intended for a limited use, low volume production. They must certainly represent more than one off strikes. Some of the designs engraved on what appear to be circular bronze rod have even been engraved a little off-centre, presumably for a an easily attained more authentic striking effect than would be obtained with a perfectly centred design on a perfectly circular bronze die, particularly if mechanical pressing (as is likely given the composite form of the dies/mounts), rather than hammer striking is used in the manufacture.

Smart observation. Thank you.
Logged

Jamie R
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 72


« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2014, 08:29:08 pm »

Another observation. The dies all appear to be cut in circular bronze rod, which is then sleeved with thick steel pipe for strength. This approach suggest that these dies are not intended for a limited use, low volume production. They must certainly represent more than one off strikes. Some of the designs engraved on what appear to be circular bronze rod have even been engraved a little off-centre, presumably for a an easily attained more authentic striking effect than would be obtained with a perfectly centred design on a perfectly circular bronze die, particularly if mechanical pressing (as is likely given the composite form of the dies/mounts), rather than hammer striking is used in the manufacture.

They're all steel dies, not bronze. The straw colour of the surfaces comes from the hardening process after engraving. And yeah, with the heavy carbon steel collars, they're made for machine striking.
Logged
Paddy
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 299

Marcus Ulpius Traianus Maior


« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2014, 02:11:55 am »

Is there no way of telling the difference between these fake coins and the real thing?
Logged

Taras
Comitia Curiata
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2014, 05:04:53 am »

Is there no way of telling the difference between these fake coins and the real thing?

Paddy, you made the million dollars question.
I will tell you my opinions.

It is very difficult to spot the difference, cause the fakes are overstruck on real ancient blanks. A good habit is to have a good library and look at many pictures of genuine published specimens (although this criterion is losing reliability, in fact in recent years many fakes have been published as genuine in printed works, in some cases of non-academic anglo-saxon publications produced or sponsored by dealers, and some cases also by Italian scholars).

Another way is to make comparisons. Look at the obverse, the lack of metal on the neck of the river god, more or less distinctly visible on all specimens (how is it possible?), or the flattened area on the head. Then each specimen is subjected to smoothing, tooling, patination, to hide the suspicious signs. In the case of this thread there are some details that should immediately become suspicious, because they are too similar in different specimens, although not clones, so they might suggest the creation of transfer dies from a worn genuine specimen.

It is a very delicate matter, and without looking the coins in hands is still more hard to say, and often I'm also wrong to declare peremptorily "fake!", the correct attitude should be to say "suspect" in any case, cause we will never be 100% sure. One thing at least is certain, if there is a type for which only five specimens were known until 10 years ago, and suddenly, within few years, do appear on the market at least as many copies, all of them very similar to each other in the details... there is something strange and suspicions are well-founded.

I post two further "suspect" specimens, the second from the catalogue of an upcoming auction (look at the tooling on head to make that sort of receding hairline on the flattened area... I suspect also the ear is tooled, from the tip of lock of hair).
The third pic is how a genuine specimen should look (from NAC B, lot 1117), the scan (source: A. Campana "Corpus Nummorum Antiquae Italiae") is not excelent, but you can still see the difference.

Regards Smiley
Nico
Logged

Joe Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM STAFF
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5657


All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2014, 05:09:49 pm »

Is there no way of telling the difference between these fake coins and the real thing?

Not unless you plan to dedicate a whole lot of time to learning to authenticate coins. If you were a billionaire and decided you wanted to collect Stradivarius violins and van Goth paintings, would you expect to be able to authenticate them yourself?  Would it really be important for you to be capable of authenticating them yourself? The way you can protect yourself is to buy from reputable dealers with a guarantee. 

Logged

Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Jay GT4
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3321


Leave the gun, take the Canoli!


« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2014, 09:59:10 pm »

But that's the point Joe was making.  Yes know your stuff but also protect yourself by buying from reputable dealers who will give you your money back if you find out its a fake...even years later!
Logged

My Gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=18312
 "Antony, that revels long o' nights"
My site: www.artisan-flooring.com
Taras
Comitia Curiata
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2014, 12:22:25 am »

Is there no way of telling the difference between these fake coins and the real thing?

Paddy, you made the million dollars question.
I will tell you my opinions.

It is very difficult to spot the difference, cause the fakes are overstruck on real ancient blanks.....

I don't think they are struck on real ancient blanks (i.e..e unstuck ancient flans), but rather they are mechanically impressed upon authentic but highly worn coins.  

This provides a clue to the fakery as on most examples you see hints and vague suggestions of the authentic under type and authentic under type wear marks/patterns breaking up the design of the mechanically impressed fake die.  This results in a complete mismatch of the state of the flan with the newly impressed design.  Its a subtle effect, but quite apparent when you view these fakes alongside authentic coins of the same type.

Yes you are right of course, I wrote "blanks" having in mind "flans". The problem is that forgers are smart, cause they use the same common undertypes of the real things, in fact in the case of Alaisa also the genuine specimens are overstruck on syracuse ae drachms (see Calciati). The same goes for other often faked types, like Agyrion or Sileraioi.

I agree with Joe, to buy from reputable dealers is a way to protect yourself, at least you can have money back if the coin comes out to be a fake.
However my concern, rather than the nature of collecting, involve the study of ancient coins, which is becoming increasingly difficult, because the bulk of the work now is to separate the wheat from the weeds.

Bye
Nico
Logged

Joe Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM STAFF
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5657


All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.


WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2014, 08:26:21 am »

These dies were confiscated 10 years ago, yet there were posts here that implied this is news and that is somehow means something very significant is happening right now. I have deleted a number "THE SKY IS FALLING" posts in this thread.  Posts that falsely state, imply or even remotely indicate that the market is flooded with fakes, that fakes are undetectable, or that one cannot collect ancient coins without becoming an expert first will be deleted.  Members that repeatedly post such utter nonsense will be banned.  

Stradivarius violins and van Goth paintings were just randomly selected examples of collectibles, arguing that they are different from coins is being a disagreeable troll.
Logged

Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Joe Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM STAFF
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5657


All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2014, 08:30:38 am »

[...However my concern, rather than the nature of collecting, involve the study of ancient coins, which is becoming increasingly difficult, because the bulk of the work now is to separate the wheat from the weeds.

Bye
Nico

Numismatists that study a specific type will almost certainly have the expertise to authenticate that type.     
Logged

Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Strato
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2014, 10:44:10 am »


One thing at least is certain, if there is a type for which only five specimens were known until 10 years ago, and suddenly, within few years, do appear on the market at least as many copies, all of them very similar to each other in the details... there is something strange and suspicions are well-founded.
[/quote]

I have posted elsewhere about a coin that would seem to fit the description of a suspect coin or "class" of coin - the "recently discovered" large numbers of EF Cassius Lentulus Spinther AR denarii.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=94177.0

I suppose the same applies to other Brutus Lentulus coins too?

In the case of a new hoard discovery, I think the whole ancient coin market would really benefit from a more open and transparent approach to the release of information. If the reputable auction houses or dealers who sell these "recently found" Cassius/Brutus coins have information concerning the origin of the coins that leads them to conclusively stake their reputation on the legitimacy of the coins, why not share this information with the public at large so as to allow for more informed decision making? If it is caveat emptor, then why not provide customers the information they need to make an informed decision?

I almost think that some kind of outside regulator or numismatic association should be entrusted with the responsibility. If there was a certification process that went beyond a single company (ex. NGC [LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]), I think the overall ancient coin market would grow.

I am a new collector of ancient coins, and so the comments I write above should be seen from that perspective.


Logged
Joe Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM STAFF
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5657


All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.


WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2014, 12:14:12 pm »

IT IS NOT CAVEAT EMPTOR. If you buy from a legitimate reputable dealer with a guarantee you do not have to beware. IT IS NOT CAVEAT EMPTOR

The Cassius and Brutus coins are undoubtedly genuine and undoubtedly from a single hoard.

Coin dealers often cannot identify their sources. If a coin dealer reveals their wholesale sources, then they will have to compete with every other dealer who did not know them, as well as all the retail customers who will try to go around him to the wholesaler. 

Finders often do not reveal details, particularly if they live in a place where their government would seize the coins if they did.

There is no centralized authority to establish a regulator. It isn't going to happen.   

IT IS NOT CAVEAT EMPTOR. If you buy from a legitimate reputable dealer with a guarantee you do not have to beware. IT IS NOT CAVEAT EMPTOR
Logged

Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Online Online

Posts: 3728



WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2014, 01:41:27 pm »

Strato's comment is, I'm afraid, nonsense. The Brutus and Cassius coins themselves, when inspected by expert numismatists, show them to be genuine regardless of whether there are large numbers of new specimens. They die match and strike match and flan match many prior specimens - they were struck at the same time by the same people using the same dies and the same techniques as other examples going back centuries. It is simply a large hoard, something that occurs regularly, perhaps every week, in one or other area of ancient numismatics across Europe, the Levant and North Africa for centuries. Countless such hoards have been found and there is nothing the least suspicious in that. Its normal. If you are buying from trustworthy dealers, the existence of multiple hoard examples of a type is normal.

There are plenty of fakes being sold by disreputable sellers, for sure, but those with expertise have little trouble identifying most of them. For every fake in my area that I report or see reported on Forum, I see another dozen that I don't have time to report. What they share in common is that they are sold by sellers with no long term retail presence on venues such as ebay. The fakes are usually obvious and the sellers usually obviously untrustworthy, to me at least.

But as Joe makes very clear, if you buy from a trustworthy dealer you will have no problem, you have no need to have any special expertise. Just as I can tell that those Cassius types are absolutely genuine, so can a retail dealer such as Joe at Forum. Experts can in general easily recognise all but the very best fakes, and the best fakes won't fool for long: examination by an expert of a few in hand will quickly tell if there is a systemic problem with a type. Taras showed some fakes that look very deceptive, but an expert in a given area will recognise which dies are used to strike fakes, and the types that are being faked, how they turn out, the typical patinas and flans etc, and especial attention will be paid, and that'll be disseminated. Reliable dealers will get to know what is what.

As a collector you really don't need to concern yourself provided, and only provided, you are buying from trustworthy, expert, dealers, because part of the purchase price is paying for the expertise to eliminate and guarantee against fakes. There is little risk in buying ancient coins, so long as you select your coin dealers wisely. In general, never buy off any dealer whose only online presence is an unverifiable ebay username, regardless of feedback scores which are very simple to manipulate to 100%. If you buy from trustworthy bricks-and-mortar dealers, occasionally an isolated fake will slip through but such dealers will refund on request, and will proactively seek out a purchaser in the case that they realise later. NB this applies to retail dealers such as Forum. It doesn't apply to auctions.

Either know the coin, or know the dealer. That's the motto.
Logged

Strato
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2014, 03:20:49 pm »

I certainly hope my comment is nonsense because I recently purchased just such a coin - from a reputable source. Smiley

On another note, with this forum's help I have already identified a fouree in my collection which was not sold to me as such; due to my having purchased it through a reputable source (at auction mind you), I have been offered a full refund. The onus was still on me to find the fault though, which is why I still feel there is an element of "caveat emptor" at play. (See: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=94899.0 ) My limited experience has already shown the importance of dealing with a reputable vendor or else I would not be getting my money back.

Context is important when having this discussion; the experience of the collector, their location, their budget, their coin collecting interest - these all affect their response to the counterfeit process outlined earlier in this thread.

As a novice who lives far away from major ancient collecting dealers I am largely reliant on the internet photos and reputation of the dealers I buy from. If it is possible to create near perfect counterfeit coins using the process outlined earlier in this thread I have no doubt it is being done. Furthermore, it strikes me as logical that it would be the high to very high end coins that such a process would be used on - so as to maximize profit and lessen chance of detection by not creating too many. Perhaps a good example would be here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=77199.0

I still think some kind of global certification process is needed. If a database of high definition photos of ancient coins was created, and was regularly updated, then this would facilitate research, collation, and fraud detection. I think this "forum ancient coin" site serves this function on some level and I am very thankful for the shared knowledge it offers.



Logged
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Online Online

Posts: 3728



WWW
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2014, 03:42:55 pm »

I certainly hope my comment is nonsense because I recently purchased just such a coin - from a reputable source. Smiley

I'm happy for that.  Wink  But I should be clear that it isn't because I say so that the Cassius types are good. After all, I've not handled your new coin. It is because your seller says so after examining the coin in hand, and you've established that you consider him a reputable source.

On another note, with this forum's help I have already identified a fouree in my collection which was not sold to me as such; due to my having purchased it through a reputable source (at auction mind you), I have been offered a full refund. The onus was still on me to find the fault though, which is why I still feel there is an element of "caveat emptor" at play.

Plated coins do not count as fakes. They are genuine ancient creations. Occasionally a dealer will miss that a plated coin is plated, but he would have recognised that it was ancient. Many people collect them. I have a few. If you have bought a plated coin, you have not bought a fake (in the terms used on Forum) but if the coin wasn't described as plated and if buyer is not happy with it, then a good dealer would refund, because the (genuine ancient) coin is not as described.

I still think some kind of global certification process is needed. If a database of high definition photos of ancient coins was created, and was regularly updated, then this would facilitate research, collation, and fraud detection. I think this "forum ancient coin" site serves this function on some level and I am very thankful for the shared knowledge it offers.

Before I call this "nonsense" again, let me put some context to it. There are likely many billion ancient coins in collections and jam-jars around the world. 99.9% wouldn't even be worth a trivially small cost to certify. We know that certification of coins typically costs some tens of dollars (there are certification companies, and that's typically what they charge, because expertise is required). Of the remaining 0.1%, say those coins costing over a few hundred dollars, almost all will be of well known moderately valued types that frankly don't raise any issues; almost all are retailed in today's world through one of a few coins platforms e.g. Sixbid and VCoins, or through well-established retail dealers such as Forum, that either guarantee the coins or that allow close scrutiny via good photos. The sellers of those coins have inspected them in hand, and are likely experts - so who on earth could second-guess them? Do I trust a long-established expert such as Joe, or an unknown pimply teenager employed by ABC certifiers? Of course the former. Hence the latter is worthless. So, certification is not economic, for low value coins, and it is not needed for most high value coins, because the fact of them being sold by trustworthy dealers is far more valuable than any certification. Certification except in those rare instances of real dilemmas is completely valueless, and thats why virtually all ancient coins, even the top end, come unslabbed and uncertified, because there's no economic case for doing so, and the real experts are those who sell them, not those who might certify them. And the databases you refer to already exist - two such databases are CoinArchives and ACsearch.

I completely exclude ebay-only sellers from the above comments. Since many ebay-only sellers are deliberately fraudulent, and trivially few genuinely high end ancient coins (non-fake) are sold by ebay-only sellers, the simplest protection is not to buy from such sellers.
Logged

glebe
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 496


WWW
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2014, 08:41:27 pm »

IT IS NOT CAVEAT EMPTOR. If you buy from a legitimate reputable dealer with a guarantee you do not have to beware. IT IS NOT CAVEAT EMPTOR.  

Coin dealers often cannot identify their sources. If a coin dealer reveals their wholesale sources, then they will have to compete with every other dealer who did not know them, as well as all the retail customers who will try to go around him to the wholesaler.  


This makes no sense - you seem to think that dealers can somehow hide their sources away from the world.
But wholesalers are perfectly capable of seeking out new customers by themselves, and will no doubt do just that, so it is irrelevant whether dealers hide the names of their sources or not.

Ross G.
Logged

Paddy
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 299

Marcus Ulpius Traianus Maior


« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2014, 11:30:16 pm »

I follow the advice given by McCabe in this thread for the vey simple reason that it's based on many years of experience of numismatics.  Especially the bit about not buying from ebay. Admitedly there are a few exceptions in my collection, but on the whole  it's a solid strategy.

What surprises me though is that caveat emptor applies to auctions. Many of my coins come from auctions, because I thought it was one of the safer ways of buying ancients, if the lots come from reputable dealers. Restricting myself to retail only would be much too much of a burden on my finances. In short, if these are the rules of the game, I shall have to think things through and decide to perhaps do something else. I love ancients and it will be tough, but alas, one must accept the world as it is, not the way one wishes it to be. Not in this context, at least.
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Online Online

Posts: 3728



WWW
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2014, 01:33:59 am »

...
What surprises me though is that caveat emptor applies to auctions. Many of my coins come from auctions, because I thought it was one of the safer ways of buying ancients, if the lots come from reputable dealers. Restricting myself to retail only would be much too much of a burden on my finances. In short, if these are the rules of the game, I shall have to think things through and decide to perhaps do something else. I love ancients and it will be tough, but alas, one must accept the world as it is, not the way one wishes it to be. Not in this context, at least.


Paddy

You can still rely on the auctioneer's reputation and expertise to avoid fakes of course. No one imagines that NAC sells many fakes - they don't. But of course they are premium priced (or rather, since it's the buyers who set the prices, people bid relatively higher with them because they are considered safe and accurate). The further down the quality chain you go the more likely you would have a problem. Just because an auctioneer pays his Sixbid fee doesn't mean he is high quality. Some may sell tooled coins and refuse refunds on all except obviously modern fakes. Some may have less expertise in screening out fakes. Just as with any sales area, if you don't have expertise in the coins, then choose a seller you can rely on.  

What you can never expect off an auctioneer is a refund if you think you paid too much or if the coin was not of the quality you expect. Everyone has a chance to go and inspect a coin before an auction, and if the coin has a problem the price may be lower but so long as a piece is genuinely ancient, once the hammer falls, the sale is final.

This doesn't mean you need to avoid auctions. I buy at auctions. You just need to understand the risk and vet the coins very carefully in advance and/or choose your auctioneer with care. But you are completely on your own when estimating whether and how high to bid. It is not the same as retail. The guarantees at auction are invariably limited to a piece being ancient, nothing more.

Retail , and especially Forum, typically offers more generous return policies than even the best auction.
Logged

Pages: [1] 2  All Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Authentication, Fakes and Frauds (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Tons of Modern Fake Dies confiscated in Sicily « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 2.645 seconds with 73 queries.