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Author Topic: Need help determining patina/dirt please!  (Read 1864 times)

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Minerva

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Need help determining patina/dirt please!
« on: January 10, 2013, 06:41:35 pm »
Hello everyone!

Here are some of my coins that I kept in distilled water for the past few weeks. I would like to clean a few of them. However, as I am new to coin collecting, I do not know what the patina looks like exactly on each of them. Could you please help me identify the patina, dirt, oxidation, or anything else found on the coins? Help is greatly appreciated! (or just your thoughts on the coins overall. I'm really curious as to what I have!)

I will put up a few more pictures on my next post.

-Minerva-

Minerva

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Re: Need help determining patina/dirt please!
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2013, 06:45:00 pm »
Here are the rest of my pictures... Sorry if the quality isn't too great. My room is very dim....

Offline SC

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Re: Need help determining patina/dirt please!
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2013, 04:48:04 am »
Minerva,

Most of these appear to have little patina on them.  A few of the images are too dark to be sure though.

The beige stuff on several appears to be dirt.  Between soaks you can try to get that out by toothbrush, toothpick or eventually you might want a pin-vise which holds a metal pin.  That can scratch the coin but a steady gentle hand and working on a wet coin can work wonders.

Several of the coins - #13 and #15 for sure -  are done and ready for you to start to identify.

Shawn
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

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Re: Need help determining patina/dirt please!
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2013, 09:16:20 am »
Shawn or anyone else, do any of these coins look anything other thanGreek, Roman or Byzantine? We ran into possible an Arabic coin and we're having a hard time trying to even find its origin much less attribute it. Any help would be great and much appreciated.

Offline SC

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Re: Need help determining patina/dirt please!
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 05:41:09 am »
I do not know what the first coin is.  The 2nd is Greek, the 3rd and 4th Late Roman and the last, as you noted in your other post, is Islamic.

Unfortunately it is difficult at first to identify Islamic coins.  I have not found a site that makes it easy.

One interesting but labour intensive means is to surf the zeno.ru and islamiccoins.ancients sites.   They are the first two links on this forum thread:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=13679.0   (Try the 2nd site first.)

The problem is that they are not identification sites.  You have to know the dynasty and ruler to search under or you have to take the time to wade through.  But as your coin is likely Mamluk you can start there.

It helps to know where your coins came from.  Though your dealer did not say, you can tell by looking at mix in the lots.  That mix (Seleucid Greek, Ptolemaic Greek, Nabataean, Judaean, Greek Imperial/Roman Provincial/Cities, Roman Imperial, Byzantine, Islamic) is known as "Holy Land" and comes from Israel and maybe Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

Then learning about the history of the area can give you clues about what you should find. 

In terms of Islamic from this area the most common that you will find are:

- Umayyad - The earliest Islamic coins.  These are usually small but very thick with highly raised lettering that is rather crude and extends off the flans.  There is sometimes a small symbol in the middle.

- Abbasid - Most of their coinage was made up of very thin but large and perfectly round silver dinars with equisite calligraphy.  These do not show up in lots.   however their copper fullus are sometimes found.  They are larger then the Ummayad and not as thick but still thicker than Roman.  They are roughly circular but a bit blobby and have 2-4 lines of neat but plain Islamic calligraphy.

- Ayyubid - (also Zangids and Seljuks) - This copper coinage is larger, quite thin and usually quite round.  They calligraphy is neat and can be quite ornate and can run in several directins on the same coin.  It often has a square or star or circle as part of the design.  This period includes coins of Saladin (an-Nasir Yusuf Salah al-Din).

- Mamluk - They ruled from Cairo but ruled the "Holy Land" in the late 13th to 15th centuries.  Though some of their coinage is round much is oval or squarish.  It is of moderate thickness.  They often have the four little points at the corners like yours does as the blanks were stamped out of sheet metal.  The calligraphy is not as ornate as Ayyubid and is a lot more vertical - in the extreme it just looks like a row of IIIIIII.  As a clue to identification try the longest lived Sultans. It was a dynasty of slave-soldier Sultans and they killed each other frequently.  Try the Bahris - Baybars the 1st, an-Nasir Mohammad, and Ashraf Shaban (whose coinage has lots of little symbols and designs incorporated), and the Burjis - Zahir Barquq (ditto) and Ashraf Barsbay.

In some cases the only possible identification will be the Dynasty but in others, like your #5, a full attribution should be possible. 

Shawn


 
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Coin Seeker

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Re: Need help determining patina/dirt please!
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 11:43:40 pm »
Wow Shawn, ats pretty amazing that yo can identify these coins in the condition they are in presently. Islamic coins are giving usaa hard time so far. Even the single one we have. Somebody attributed it for us but we want to be able to fit ourselves but its hard finding a good site. Somebody showed us a great place for roman coin identification. I'm hoping we can find one for Greek coins. Is there a trick to know if a coin is Roman, Greek or Byzantine before and after they are clean?

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Re: Need help determining patina/dirt please!
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2013, 05:25:18 am »
Greek coins aren't easy to identify either.

The forum identification page is your best and cheapest bet.  Post picture for free advice.

My first book on Greek coins many years ago was Richard Plant's Greek Coin Types and their Identification.  The forum often has it for around $42.  It organizes thousands of Greek coin line drawings by reverse topic - i.e. Horses, Helmets, etc.  Good book if you expect to get many unidentified greeks but not worth it for a couple.

One thing to look, and feel, for is the "fabric" which is the overall form and feel of the coin flan.  Thick, thin, round, uneven, clunky, flat edges, rounded edges, bevelled, etc.  It is unfortunately partly subjective and requires experience.  But it is literally possible to ID the "culture" of many ancient coins while blindfolded just by feel.

ID after cleaning is much easy, especially with good quality coins.  The writing is your first clue - Latin, Greek, Islamic Calligraphy, Hebrew, etc.

Google identifying uncleaned coins and read the half dozen or so short essays/sites that come up.  Start with www.romancoin.info which is part of this forum.

Shawn
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline areich

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Re: Need help determining patina/dirt please!
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2013, 06:20:58 am »
The Plant book is very useful for a new collector, less so for an advanced one. I got it too late when I could recognize most common types and those that I couldn't identify, I couldn't find in there either.
Andreas Reich

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Re: Need help determining patina/dirt please!
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2013, 06:37:17 am »
The Plant book is very useful for a new collector, less so for an advanced one. I got it too late when I could recognize most common types and those that I couldn't identify, I couldn't find in there either.

It's a philosophical issue whether a book showing types in schematic format - as Plant does - or a melange of photos of typical styles and fabrics is more useful for a beginner collector. For an advanced collector the latter is definitely more useful. It's better to know that a coin "looks like" an Italian civic bronze or a Ptolemaic issue or an archaic Peloponnese silver issue, even if the actual types do not match with what's in the book. A beginner collector may identify his common coins more quickly using a resource such as Plant but learns absolutely nothing in the process because they don't become familiar with styles and fabrics at all. Somehow a book like Plant is like riding a bike with training wheels. If you don't get off those training wheels and fall over a lot, you never learn to ride a bike. So I think I'd prefer to recommend to a beginner to get books with lots of photos of real coins so as to become familiar with styles, sizes and fabrics. Browsing Sear's GVC volumes or one of the Lindgren volumes on bronzes will teach you much more about ancient coins than weeks spent learning Plant's taxonomy.

It actually doesn't matter whether you identify your coins correctly, if you are able to say with some confidence "this looks like a Spanish bronze but I've no idea which one". You've already achieved 90%. I'm very happy when collectors present a Republican semis for identification on this Forvm - not just because they are fun to ID, but the collector has already got to 95% if he already recognises the coin as a Republican semis. A collector who knows that much is actually more advanced than a collector who has managed to match-off the type and legends according to Plant but would not recognise another Spanish bronze, by eye, as being related.

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Re: Need help determining patina/dirt please!
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 07:24:00 am »
I wouldn't expect a collector to rely solely on Plant's book. In fact no one needs it at all. Perhaps it isn't even useful for anyone, I was just giving it the benefit of the doubt. But there's no need to 'learn' to use the book, it takes literally a minute to understand the concept and then you just have to look up your coin.

Of course you can just as easily put "zeus eagle" into one of the relevant online databases and you will get better results. I have used it maybe 5 times  after I had exhausted all other possibilities and never found a coin.
Andreas Reich

 

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