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Author Topic: Antony LEG IIX  (Read 2383 times)

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Offline Jay GT4

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Antony LEG IIX
« on: December 25, 2012, 11:44:31 pm »
From the Antony Legionary thread this coin came up.  Andrew and I have similar concerns about it.  Thoughts?


Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Antony LEG IIX
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2012, 03:37:54 am »
My specific concerns:

I think it has been tooled from a much more worn legionary. I now know who sells it, a firm which is known not to be reliable as regards improved and altered coins and I show below another coin (Caesar elephant) currently on sale by that seller. It looks like tooled silver, unnatural/ scraped/ altered, weird style.  Just try finding a style match. Just to be clear, this thread is about the above pictured LEG IIX (rather than about the elpehant pictured below), but when seen together one has the impression of a pair of tooled and altered coins (deliberately in one case, accidentally in the other).

Looking again at the LEG IIX, much of it is quite natural, including the style of the eagle and the typical recessions ghosting the lettering; the aplustre-end of the galley looks odd, as do the standards, and the contrast between the obverse corrosion and the smooth fields on the reverse. The reverse is concave, ie scooped out or dug out, with an unnatural surface. If you look to the left of the left-hand standard you see a series of horizontal parallel scrape marks, mechanically made by a tool. It is not a die match to another well-known (genuine) specimen of LEG IIX which I also show below. The lack of a diematch is not, itself, of concern, as the issue might have been struck from 2 or 3 dies (quite usual even with the rarest issues), but the die is in the style of a different engraving hand, which seems implausible. By the by it is also of light weigh, 3.35 grams, consistent with it being reduced from a worn coin, and so is the caesar elephant: 3.30 grams.

All considered together, conclusion: fake, tooled from a corroded or worn ordinary legion. I have not the slightest doubt that the above pictured LEG IIX is fake, and the below pictured elephant is badly tooled.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Antony LEG IIX
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2012, 03:54:32 am »
I would add that this is a perfect example of the chickens coming home to roost (translation: bad actions come home to you). By blatantly selling vast quantities of tooled coins, the seller in question has opened a wide door to allow him to sell serious fakes, because under any tooled coin may lie a fake.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Antony LEG IIX
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2012, 09:39:55 am »
I don't know whether it's genuine or not, but I cannot believe that the LEG IIX has been recut from a worn example. Despite Andrew's analysis (concavity, unnnatural surfaces, tool marks), I see nothing in the details of the reverse that suggests recutting, to me everything looks die-struck as normal.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Antony LEG IIX
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2012, 01:11:43 pm »
I have seen very few tooled silver coins (though more lately than in the past).  The reverse does seem more concave than typical but that might be a photographic effect from increased contrast (possibly from manipulation with software but also possibly due to camera angle and lighting). The "tool marks" could be efforts to remove signs of casting but they could just indicate slightly rough cleaning or light smoothing. These too could be exagerated by increased contrast in the photograph. I can't condemn the coin based on the photos. I think it is more likely genuine than fake but I certainly am not authenticating it from the photographs.
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Antony LEG IIX
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2013, 05:19:53 pm »
Well... it went way beyond my means...$5190.08 US. 

I was willing to take a chance on it but at that price I could buy a used Honda  :evil:

Offline HELEN S

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Re: Antony LEG IIX
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2013, 07:23:21 pm »
Well... it went way beyond my means...$5190.08 US.  

I was willing to take a chance on it but at that price I could buy a used Honda  :evil:


  that is an awful lot of money and find it hard to believe that people will buy them at that price without having them checked by an expert 

Offline carthago

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Re: Antony LEG IIX
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2013, 10:51:26 pm »
The reverse style doesn't sit right with me.   The wings of the eagle aren't typical of most of the legionary issues, though you do see them as just straight lines instead of dotted with feathers some, the eagle just looks too primitive to me.  You don't have much to compare it to with this particular issue.  And what happened to the obverse?  You can't really completely tell the style of the ship, but it doesn't sit right to me either and it almost looks to me like the mangling was intentional to hide a badly created fake die that may have been a dead giveaway.  It's like the forger said "hey, i'm tired of this carving thing so let's just bang out a coin and beat it up where I was too lazy to carve detail."

I also question the venue which is a major red flag in my book.  A rarity of this magnitude should sell in a major auction and not at a garage sale.  All told, it doesn't smell right to me on all levels.  I'd stay away from it at any price

Just my 2 sesterti.

Offline areich

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Re: Antony LEG IIX
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2013, 04:03:57 am »
Well... it went way beyond my means...$5190.08 US.  

I was willing to take a chance on it but at that price I could buy a used Honda  :evil:


  that is an awful lot of money and find it hard to believe that people will buy them at that price without having them checked by an expert 


Most collectors think they are experts themselves, whether this is justified or not.
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